Episode 001 – Aito De la Rua
When we understand that good and bad things might come from the same experiences
Aito De la Rua (b. 1974) is an Argentina-born global entrepreneur in hospitality and wellbeing. His current ventures include Nomade, an international transformational hotel chain, and Spinoza, Amsterdam-based startup offering psychedelic programs and products. Aito calls himself a seeker studying different modalities of transformation connecting the dots of business, philosophy, psychedelics and spirituality.
EPISODE SUMMARY
Aito shares his experiences of growing up as the son of the president of Argentina, what he learned from his extraordinary times as the manager of Shakira and how psilocybin and telepathy have become a part of his understanding of life, work and business.
RECORDED AT
Soho House Amsterdam, Netherlands, around noon in one sunny summer Tuesday.
“I remember myself being in the shower the night before my father was taking office as the president of Argentina. I was 24 by then and I thought, wow, this is going to be amazing in a way thanking the energy in the universe. But at the same time I said to myself, this is a perfect moment, but don’t be so sure about perfection because good and bad things might come from this experience.”
KEYWORDS & TRANSCRIPTION
Psychedelics, imperfection, life, people, journey, Shakira, beautiful, psilocybin, telepathy, Argentina, Spinoza, sensation, understanding, experiment, NOMADE, amazing
SPEAKERS
Aito De la Rua & Risto Kuulasmaa
Aito De la Rua 00:03
I remember myself being in the shower. The night before my father was taking office as a president of Argentina. I was 24 by then, and I thought, wow, this is going to be amazing, in a way, thanking the energy of the universe, but at the same time I said to myself, this is a perfect moment. But don't be so sure about perfection. Because good and bad things might come from this experience.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:37
Welcome to Talks of imperfection.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:41
Today I sit down with my friend, Aito De la Rua visiting my hometown Amsterdam. Medical psychedelics are gaining acceptance for treating mental health disorders and the rapidly growing psychedelic drugs market size is projected to reach $10 billion by 2027.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:02
But before hearing about Aito's ventures in the psychedelic world, we learn what it is to be the son of a president, and manage Shakira, among other things.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:13
My name is Risto Kuulasmaa. And I'm your host at talks of imperfection, where we meet nearly perfect people revealing their imperfections. Our intention is to create an encounter, where we learn and get inspired about what kind of role imperfection plays in our private and professional lives.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:34
So buckle up, welcome on board to the transformative and psychedelic episode of Talks of imperfection.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:45
Welcome to the Talks of imperfection, Aito De la Rua, great to have you.
Aito De la Rua 01:50
Thank you, my dear friend Risto Thank you for having me.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:54
Let's dive in. You have rather unique story, if you could fast forward from childhood, to this moment, what are the kind of most interesting phases and events that you would like to share?
Aito De la Rua 02:12
I think it was an interesting life as any other, like in a way like, I have the great opportunity to have an interesting family, father and mother, brother and sister. Since I remember my father, he was in politics working for the peace of the country. And I always remember to, to saw him like fighting for big dreams. I remember, most of my colleagues fathers were attending the school meetings and school sports days and everything. And my father, he was never there until I realised, okay, he's doing big things. He's outside my city in other provinces of the country, talking to people to make, try to make the country better.
Aito De la Rua 03:03
So my and I have also same name as himself. So in a way I felt during my childhood that I was in part him, you know, when Fernando "Aito" De la Rua, it's the same name. And I feel empowered by his vision of working for the people, I have a normal childhood, but with all this idea of witnesses in someone who was in a very different career or job than than the others. And it was a very beautiful process to learn also in the good and in the bad times. So it was an interesting childhood. And but the most important thing I have to say is being part of a family with common sense, with beautiful values, and with a lot of freedom. So I have to manage all that in one equation. And that was the interesting journey in my life.
Risto Kuulasmaa 04:01
And then you graduated, you went to the work life. What were the first projects?
Aito De la Rua 04:11
So the first project.. Yeah, I study Law. But I never worked as a lawyer, honestly.
Aito De la Rua 04:17
As soon as I finished the career, I thought, This is not for me. And I started to help my family... at the same time I was in the university my father was very close to to become a president. So I decided to to help him. We were creating cultural festivals and doing a lot of things.
Aito De la Rua 04:37
At that time. He was mayor of the city and I thought okay, this is a good moment to help with my ideas. And so I became part of the campaign, at the time I was I think 22 years old. Doing shows when festival doing a lot of cultural things. And when he became president, I remember I thought okay, wow, now I need to really think.. because when you have a father in that position, you feel like your country is your house in a way, you know?
Aito De la Rua 05:07
You feel someone doing something bad in the city or anything, you want to protect it, you feel like responsible. So at that time, I thought, instead of going outside of the country to do other things and do my own projects, my question was, how can I help in this situation?
Aito De la Rua 05:26
And so I went back to Spain, where I used to know this Argentine guy, very famous at the time called Martine Barsalsky, he was a founder of a Yustela telecommunication company.
Aito De la Rua 05:39
And at that time, he was very rich, and I was 32. And he was like, 42. And I said, Martine, okay, you're, you're a good friend, you're a millionaire. And you're Argentine, although we are living in Spain, but you have to help me because I'm young, I'm the son of a president and I have access to some good ideas, if we both brainstorm well, and he says, "Okay, let me think, why don't we do something on education?"
Aito De la Rua 06:05
I say I love it, and we just started that beautiful brainstorming for more than a month. And we became with this idea that is called Educar. That means it education in Educ.ar not instead of dot.com.
Aito De la Rua 06:18
And the idea was to connect all the public schools, this was the year 2000. So imagine at that time, internet was just starting, at least in Argentina. So the idea was to connect all the schools, into the public network of internet, create content, and to also capacitation for the teachers and students.
Aito De la Rua 06:41
But the funny story is like, we started the project, we went to see the President and he said, "Perfect, let's do it. I love it. Thank you guys."
Aito De la Rua 06:48
And then it's also complicate with the public offices and the state, because then the money is never ready. And of those public funds. So we have to be very careful.
Aito De la Rua 06:58
So Martine that is that type of a character like Elon Musk in a way.
Aito De la Rua 07:03
One day I remember I was in Buenos Aires and he was in Madrid, and he called me "Aito, this is going to be very slow, because I never worked with the government. But I can see things are going very, very slow. So I will donate the money, we need to start this venture."
Aito De la Rua 07:19
And I will donate one peso that was $1 at the time for each public student of the country. That was $11 million or pesos.
Aito De la Rua 07:31
And I remember being on the phone like, Okay, this this guy know what he, he wants to do in live. And he donated $11 million. And then the project started very professional, very carefully.
Aito De la Rua 07:44
It was a mix company between completely nonprofit not completed from for the government. And it's beautiful, because the company still there after 25 years, already passed from that moment, Educ.ar still the content, educational platform from the government in Argentina regarding education.
Aito De la Rua 08:08
So that was my first let's say, at that time, on my 20s, beginning of the 20s. Involving that family trying to do something for the country. That was my first and then I decided to, to leave the country. Because I thought it was too much. That I needed a rest, let's say, of being the son of this amazing person.
Risto Kuulasmaa 08:35
Let's stay there, what was the imperfection of being a son of a president?
Aito De la Rua 08:43
I only think that everything that happens is perfect in a way.
Aito De la Rua 08:48
Because I mean, although imperfections are perfect. That's also something that I like. But the little imperfection there was that, it was difficult for me to step out of being the son of this important person also having the same name. So also his story was part of my story was too big of a confusion. It was difficult, at least in Argentina was different to me to get separated to the story of his life because I was a the son of the President and I was the son of someone who had resigned in difficult moments.
Aito De la Rua 09:29
So I thought as a kid, like, I thought sometimes that I will, I would very close to him and feel like myself the need of separation a little bit. Not from my father physically but yes, to find my own story.
Aito De la Rua 09:46
And and for that I needed to be out of Argentina. So the imperfection was perfect in order to to leave the country to find myself and then another journey started, in my life.
Risto Kuulasmaa 09:59
So then, you took your own way. And that's quite a story again, can you share what happened?
Aito De la Rua 10:09
Yeah, then a new journey started trying to figure it out my own way, as you said.
Aito De la Rua 10:17
And I remember I went back to Spain. It was such a freedom sensation to be in a country where nobody knows me. And nobody knew at the time that I was in that situation in Argentina. And, that freedom gave me a lot of light in terms of what's next. And I was completely free of choosing a new paths.
Aito De la Rua 10:44
I remember I went the journey to different places without taking care of what's next. And that was a very beautiful sensation. At that time, my brother Antonio, who was living in the States, he was partnering with Shakira, the famous singer, an artist, and I was living in Spain, they came to visit me and we have a beautiful conversation.
Aito De la Rua 11:15
I was always fund of music in general and production. Remember, I told you I've been working with production things, in the past. And at the time, she was ready to start touring, she was in a very important tour.
Aito De la Rua 11:29
And, in a way, I asked her it's incredible how famous you are around the world and how beautiful your music but for some reason, in Spain, you don't have much attention yet.
Aito De la Rua 11:44
Why don't you let me help you here in order to make your career bigger in this country, because I feel people will love you here. At the time, she was big in the States and Latin America, but not yet in Spain, or not that much.
Aito De la Rua 12:00
And she says, of course, she has helped me. And it was so interesting, because in less than a year, her public in Spain or her also endorsements and ideas and sponsors and touring platform was bigger than the rest of Latin America. And I had to say that I've always been very lucky to work with her because I was a very good manager because I become her manager. But but she's an amazing artist, super talent. So in a way that was easy to sell her story to the world and to co-produce her touring and work in the music with her was an amazing story. I admire her very much.
Risto Kuulasmaa 12:44
What makes her so perfect?
Aito De la Rua 12:48
Her imperfection? I'll say, yes. Because as an artist, she's seems to be perfect. But this a person is all of us, is that imperfection is what makes the magic I think, in every human being, not only Shakira. But she's a very talented poetry. She writes amazing music. She's a very good dancer. She loves to be an influential character.
Aito De la Rua 13:22
The imperfection is that she's not perfect. As everybody from the public might see. And that's the interesting part. What happens backstage, she's a normal human being with fears and like all of us, and that imperfection was for me the the big attention to in order to help her, to help such a great artists to make her voice loud, and help the world because she was not only a singer, she was a performer, but she was an activist and I remember saying to myself, I need to help this human being because she will do amazing things in the world.
Risto Kuulasmaa 13:58
And what did you learn from Shakira? And the times you worked with her?
Aito De la Rua 14:05
I learned to be professional in everything I want to do in my life.
Aito De la Rua 14:12
She is such.. Yeah, such a broad person in every aspect of her career. So amazing when you see rehearsals, she's in charge of the light, of the sound, of the wardrobe, of the music is, I mean.. the lyrics. She's like 360.
Aito De la Rua 14:30
And I thought to myself, what a good example, to follow your path to know where you're good at and to, to really give water to your gift and to make it big, big enough. She was never improvising. She was never taking things for granted. And I learned from her the passion of knowing that you are exactly doing what you can and do best.
Risto Kuulasmaa 15:03
And how that story and the then what? Unfolded afternoon.
Aito De la Rua 15:09
Well, I remember exactly how it ended because I was then living in New York, being the manager of Shakira at that time, she was doing such amazing things in the world from education to WakaWaka, the World Cups and many tours around the world.
Aito De la Rua 15:24
Aito De la Rua 15:24
It was like more than seven years at that time as in that position. And I remember I had... that morning, I was in New York meeting the President of Sony Music, it was important meeting. But then something happened. I remember it was in the elevator, looking at myself in the mirror. And I didn't recognise me, like, who are you Aito?
Aito De la Rua 15:52
You've been talking about these beautiful things, but that's not you anymore, that that's not your path. This is not your path. This is your representing someone but this is not your life.
Aito De la Rua 16:02
And in that elevator, or it was less than seven, six seconds, like I saw all my life again. Because I saw like my father, his life, him as a precedent, me in a way, helping him representing him not as a manager, and then Shakira such another big public figure, also doing the same, like helping others to make their dreams come true.
Aito De la Rua 16:28
But that day, I told to myself, I did eye contact in that mirror, and I and I asked myself,
Aito De la Rua 16:34
What about your dream? What about your goal? What about your path? What about your gift?
Aito De la Rua 16:39
And, before being down back on Earth from the elevator, I decided, to quit in a way but with with a lot of calm and with a lot of, you know, when you have the sensation that the answer is already there in your body. And I felt that and a new chapter started as well.
Risto Kuulasmaa 17:00
Such a perfect moment, perfect event and something changed.
Aito De la Rua 17:06
Yeah, that was a perfect moment. Because I remember when I first started walking again, at least in my body with my own decision, I, I felt like flying.
Aito De la Rua 17:18
And, actually, I flew away again, from New York in finding new ways. At that time, I thought that in order to find myself I need to get lost. I'm, again completely out of my family story and completely out of Shakira story. And I think at that time, the first this the destiny that I found was Sri Lanka. And I went back to Sri Lanka, to visit an old friend, a beautiful monk. Not even to talk about it, but just to meditate and, go inwards.
Aito De la Rua 17:54
And that was the first journey, let's say, into my unconscious dreams, in a conscious way, you know, because I knew that, in order to find more answers, I needed to go into myself.
Risto Kuulasmaa 18:13
And those were the times when also our path crossed. And you made a big impression because when we met you explain that you are you're in a kind of process of unlearning. And in a way, you described yourself as a laboratory. So you went all in to kind of experiment and, explore. What were your methods to really kind of find the answers within you?
Aito De la Rua 18:42
Interesting that you remember that?
Aito De la Rua 18:45
I always said, yeah, that I wanted to this laboratory of experiments. But basically starting with myself. I was impressed when I started to do these journeys into myself, how much we don't know about anything in our life. And I thought, wow, this is incredible because too much information that we have from our education system at the schools, also from our parents. I've been very lucky with the education they gave me.
Aito De la Rua 19:16
But then I thought this is a lot of information here that is not mine. That is just I'm headed this information from other cultures and for being in Argentina, for being in my country. Then I went to Sri Lanka and I see completely different stories and I said, this is like a software. I have like one type of information but there's so many and so it was the first period when I was trying to study everything you know from Kabbalah different type, I'm Catholic, but I was thinking, I need to study and to learn more.
Aito De la Rua 19:50
But then it become a point when I say, Okay, the next part of the process is to unlearn everything.
Aito De la Rua 19:57
And really how to came back to this empty vasal into my life because there's too much information here. So I started that process of trying to reprogram myself, also trying to understand some techniques in how to reprogram. But it was more than anything, I don't want to say meditation but walking and breathing and understanding, to be backing connecting with nature. And it was this beautiful battle against my thinking process, and try to go down to my feelings, emotions and, try to dance between mind and body.
Risto Kuulasmaa 20:38
And often in these kinds of soul searching periods, the awareness starts to shine the light, and you start to see your potential, but also your imperfections. Was there something specific that you saw that, okay, this is not serving me anymore, I need to work with this specific thing.
Aito De la Rua 21:04
Many as you say, I think I'm a guy that I'm always involved in many things. And I realised at that time that in order to be good at some of the things, I need to start saying no to many, and to focus in the ones that I can do best, which is not always an easy decision, because I feel I can do very good things in many but but then I understood, I need to focus and I think that was a big challenge for me, start to really go inwards and understand where is my potential and try to follow that one.
Aito De la Rua 21:45
The beautiful part is that is a journey that never ends. I don't think like, although now I'm closer to my potential or I'm closer to understand, which are the things I know the best for me, is always a constant feeling of understanding myself.
Aito De la Rua 22:03
But I think going back to your question, I have to get rid of some people around myself not because they are good or bad, but because I feel that in order to synchronise with new layers of my moment in life, I decided to stop seeing some people and try to go meet some new ones.
Aito De la Rua 22:28
And that was an interesting process. It's not that I changed friendship from I mean, friendship or new people from old people but just trying to vibrate, with new people in my life.
Risto Kuulasmaa 22:45
Like setting a new standard through the relaunch of Aito.
Aito De la Rua 22:51
Yes, I mean, it's..
Risto Kuulasmaa 22:52
Who you met on that new standard?
Aito De la Rua 22:58
I met very humbled people, that I was like, in you know, in many events and people that I knew from all my life and suddenly I, I met the wisdom of humbled people, of priests, of teachers. I was very open to meet like new people. I was like discovering life in a new way.
Aito De la Rua 23:26
Sometimes I was talking more with the taxi driver than with my best friend in order to get like new information. And I think, at the time was beautiful how to how things in life appear naturally. When you when you open again, then you just start finding the right people. But for me, the big discovery was to meet people that I never thought they were the right people to tell me exactly what I was looking for.
Risto Kuulasmaa 23:53
And now the gates are open, it's so clear that you created this new realm for yourself. You were the, you know, you took the initiative. And now if I look at your ventures and your businesses, they represent this new standard, right. Could you talk about what started to unfold after these realisations?
Aito De la Rua 24:19
Yeah, I think I think I'm always saying these days that, I always give space to the universe to give me the final thought on any idea. I feel like I have onboarded in my life of people that helped me understand in some of my decisions, but then the final decision is from the universe.
Aito De la Rua 24:43
And when you open that gate, as you said, I feel it's important to learn how to listen. I listened more than any time in my life.
Aito De la Rua 24:53
But but not to people but to the universe. Of course to people as well, but I'm always trying to synchronise with the, with the wisdom of the silence with the wisdom of the energy of that sensation that you can have in your body that is a yes or is a no.
Aito De la Rua 25:13
And suddenly things start aligning magically, of course with my focus of COVID energy, but then at least something clear becomes to my mind that is, exactly, I start knowing exactly what not todo, and to focus my life in the things that I know I can do best. And, it has to have a meaning. I think when that gate opens, finally, you start feeling that okay, this is the last day of my life. What can I do for doing it better?
Risto Kuulasmaa 25:45
And that sounds like Nomade. Can you walk us through? What what is that?
Aito De la Rua 25:50
Yeah, well, Nomade, it's a beautiful journey that started with with friends and families with my brother Antonio and Sebastian, the first creator of the place in Tulum, it's so beautiful.
Aito De la Rua 26:04
It started as a hotel, we all came from this amazing festival Burning Man. It's like, it was still a big inspiration in my life. And we spend many festivals there. It's a very beautiful festival in a way change the a lot of perspectives in your life, but it's only one week, although it seems like to be like a lifetime is just four or five days.
Aito De la Rua 26:31
And so we had this sensation that when we when we leave Burning Man, we didn't have a place to do like a soft landing, because coming back to, the real world is a big shift.
Aito De la Rua 26:43
And so we started loaded into loom and that time was not that far from Burning Man and beautiful hotels were there. So we rented this hotel and we started to do some parties and celebrations just to do like a transition between Burning Man and real life.
Aito De la Rua 26:58
And, we realise that there's a space there not as a business but there's a space for integration. And in a way you don't need to go to Burning Man for the needs of integration because life sometimes is so struggling in real life that we became this hotel like a nest for integration life in general.
Aito De la Rua 27:18
And it's a new category, we started like six seven years ago but we call it transformation I hotel with this idea to come rest explore investigate, dance, move yourself, we belive healing is a joyful healing. But then we became more and more professionals let's say in try to share the experience with our guests, in how our different ways to journey within, in a beautiful space. Like Tulum and we open up for tantra classes and biohacking and many things that in, combination with resting and good sleep is a great gateway to start the journey inside.
Risto Kuulasmaa 28:10
Beautiful.
Risto Kuulasmaa 28:12
And now you have a interesting portfolio of ventures?
Aito De la Rua 28:17
Yeah. So when I when.. Nomade as I said is for me one of the main ones because I'm in charge of the transformational department in all the new ideas on how to connect ancient wisdom with technology and how can we offer this experience that is not just a hotel, so I put a lot of energy there.
Aito De la Rua 28:41
We have another entity called Nomade Love which is where we practices and invite teachers and trainers in order to learn more from them and what from that content we can then put in the hotels.
Aito De la Rua 28:58
I'm also in the food industry a little bit with a company called Eternal Foods also formed from mushrooms, trying to create like some replacement of meat, that I think is going to be very important for the future. I still eating meat sometimes in my life, but less and less and I think in order to get a final the perfect tuned vibration with everything, less meat or replacement for me this also needed, so Eternal Food in that way.
Aito De la Rua 29:27
And and then in my experience my life, I did a lot of time psychedelics. I love the to be in the jungle with shamans and I had many experiments there and I realised once what a beautiful thing to share with people that I know they're not going to be never here in the jungle, like with me with this Sherman because for different reasons we have different personalities and they're not going to do it this way.
Aito De la Rua 29:59
But then the medicine is incredible. What is call the psilocybin, on the world of psychedelics that I did many, I found psilocybin, one of the gentle ones. And I thought about this idea of how can we offer a journey or a good experience in the city, in a very safe container place to people like my mother, that she's not gonna come never to the jungle with me with this shaman that I love, but she will be afraid.
Aito De la Rua 30:32
And then we started this Spinoza company
Risto Kuulasmaa 30:36
Psychedelics they are making a huge wave now.
Risto Kuulasmaa 30:41
The government's kind of shut down us and all their kind of healing qualities with mental health improvements. They were forgotten for decades. And right now we live amazing new era where investments are moving towards psychedelics, I just came from Davos World Economic Forum, and on the side events, there was like a whole week of programming in the medical psychedelic house.
Risto Kuulasmaa 31:13
It goes without saying psychedelics are here, they will help with the global mental health problem, the epidemic there. So what about Spinoza? What's the help for? Like a common person like me? Who doesn't know much about psychedelics? What is the added value to become part of your community?
Aito De la Rua 31:40
Well, first, the company name is in honour of the great Dutch philosopher Spinoza, who was the first one who says, Please, guys, let's start unifying body and mind because they are completely one same thing.
Aito De la Rua 31:54
And if we don't understand this is going to be difficult to make the full process, which I agree 100%. That time was discarded. And the other is like, separated that it will be everything. He had this beautiful quote that he tells "God is in nature, and you will find it there, and we have the same substance."
Aito De la Rua 32:18
So in a way, for me, Spinoza was a big master of the concept of oneness of wholeness. There's, one big thing and by the way, you have the, we have the same substance of this one thing, so there's no separation. So for me, Spinoza now the company and psychedelics is this vision of trying, in a little journey, deep deeper, but profound, to really have the feeling of this oneness. Because we live in this world completely. With duality all the time and separation good and bad, poor and rich, black and white.
Aito De la Rua 32:58
And we we don't have this sense of wholeness. So Spinoza is a company that different from other companies, we don't want to be in the psychedelic world only to treat depression, which I think is amazing and has a super potential value. But we feel what about people that are not depressed, but they want also to understand more, and to start that inner journey, and to feel that wholeness and oneness, and maybe we can help as well. And that's the beauty to be in this country where it's completely free.
Risto Kuulasmaa 33:34
How it works. You are a community, you provide products. What is this all about?
Aito De la Rua 33:40
Yeah, well, we started the community. Basically, there's three pillars, let's say one is the product itself. If you're the Truffle in the Netherlands, that is the place where we are allowed to sell and to share. Then we have the ceremonies, that it can be like with groups, or personnel. We do it in the city centres. And we do it outside in nature, which is also amazing.
Aito De la Rua 34:10
And step by step where creating the community. We're also launching this next day is the Spinoza app, which resumes in a way everything that we're doing because in the app, you have masterclasses about how to make it good the trip. You have a lot of information, you have good music, you have examples of intentions, you have beautiful things and deep things in order to help understand not beginners but people that maybe never tried before.
Aito De la Rua 34:42
So the app is, there's many times that I've been in with people like okay, I have this checklist but it's important to do it in the right place in the right set and setting and, for me I've been in the recreational side myself, experiment with the substances, but i'll fell much more pleasure with, when you use it as a therapeutical plant. Or plant medicine, sorry.
Aito De la Rua 35:08
In the world of psychedelics, they always said, setting an intention, those are the three very important things. And I think that if you know that you're in good conditions, if you're not taking any pills, any antidepressant with us on had problems with alcohol, you have to know yourself in order to do the, the work.
Aito De la Rua 35:27
But once you're there, it's about letting you enjoy the journey and see and be very aware of, the experiment of the precense. So for me, I always said is, you can have 10, you can have in one good journey of psilocybin the comparison of 10 years of therapy, you know, but it's, it's different for everyone.
Aito De la Rua 35:57
For me, it's a beautiful journey from, I mean, go into the unconscious, trying to go into your unconscious with with a little lamp, you know, and to see what's, what's out there. What is in this world of shadows, that sometimes we don't want to get in. I think it was Joseph Campbell, who says that the whole you fear to enter mind, have the treasure is sick. And I think that the journey into at least with psilocybin, for me, it's like, Okay, I'm gonna go a little bit into my own consciousness, in order to understand myself better,
Risto Kuulasmaa 36:35
What would be your thoughts to people who approach psychedelics through fear?
Aito De la Rua 36:48
I think fear is always interesting, also, I think it's perfect and imperfect, depending on the on the moment you take fear in consideration, but I understand any approach into psychedelics also, when people don't know much about it.
Aito De la Rua 37:05
And I think it's very important to get good information about it. I think not everyone needs psychedelics, that's also beautiful, because people can go to the same place without it.
Aito De la Rua 37:18
I think psychedelics in a way, they're a good shortcut, in order to see something that for others, like me can take years of meditation, or a lot of time to have like, like, deep experience. But I don't feel psychedelic is something that, that you need, once what once it reveals you what is there that can help you, you don't need to repeat the experience all the time. But it gives you it gives you a big insight in, in what is a huge possibility for you to get out of, of some sensations. That's the beauty of psychedelics. Sometimes there's a little bit confusion that people like, okay, so I need to repeat the experience many times? And sometimes I feel like maybe one good journey will be enough for, a lot of people in order to see what's your potential, and then you can go that way, completely out of the psychedelic experience, but in your own journey,
Risto Kuulasmaa 38:22
How you see the legislation changing. I mean, we've seen the first wave of freeing marijuana in US. The psychedelics are making their way to, to the medical realm. How you see the next 5-10 years
Aito De la Rua 38:41
I see the world follow with the Netherlands always because you know, with marijuana, it happened the same, with cannabis here in the Netherlands was always approved, no problem. And then the world started to see what's going on here.
Aito De la Rua 38:55
And of course, go in white with therapeutical laws, etc.
Aito De la Rua 39:00
And now I have the same feeling because in the Netherlands, the truffle is not the full thing. But the truffle is already allowed, because they know, it could be recreational or therapeutical in a good way. So I always say to my partner that let's follow the Netherlands. They know, I mean, they're always one step behind sorry, one step ahead.
Aito De la Rua 39:24
And, then the world will follow them. And it's happening right now because you know, Oregon, Canada, there's other states. So I see this movement unstoppable in a way also because the amount of research from Hopkins University and many others.
Aito De la Rua 39:42
This was very much developed in the 60s. There was a problem there that the government of Nixon at that time stop all the investigation but now, thanks God, there is this, comeback?
Aito De la Rua 39:56
But there's not something new is not something that the world or the government is just the last two, three years saying okay, we are we are going back to a lot of data and information that this is very good for for some depression states or people that want to get better.
Risto Kuulasmaa 40:15
Can psychedelics take us from imperfection to perfection?
Aito De la Rua 40:21
I think they can take us everywhere, from imperfection to perfection, and from perfection to imperfection.
Aito De la Rua 40:31
The other way around. Because the beauty is that you understand that there's both parts of the same coin for me perfection and imperfection. Love and sadness, fear and joyful. It's all part of the same of the same thing.
Aito De la Rua 40:49
But but if we change our perception in how to think about perfection or imperfection, I think that that's the beauty of, a new perspective.
Aito De la Rua 41:00
And as I said before, I think that there's a lot of people that they know, they don't need psychedelics. And there's some that it might be like, helpful, just to do it, that they sometimes in order to, it's like a booster of consciousness.
Aito De la Rua 41:15
And then you see something that you can say, okay, it's true, there's no duality. In reality, we are connected with everything. We are one with a tree, we're one with the universe. There's no separation, either with my enemies, we are the same, there's no genders. And when you see it, this, you'll believe it because you experiment 100%.
Aito De la Rua 41:41
And then you go back to life, then duality arise again. But you know that you saw it, and you know that is true. And then you can come back there by meditating or by only awareness, or any different. That's the beauty for me about psychedelics, you don't need to repeat the experience many times.
Risto Kuulasmaa 42:00
What is your personal definition for perfection?
Aito De la Rua 42:07
Perfection. You know, it's interesting, because I was never trying to, in general to follow perfection as a focus in my life.
Aito De la Rua 42:23
So perfection for me is like this, it's like not, an a objective. But, something that I may use, unconsciously, I should say, in order to try to do my best, but my goal I think, is trying to do my best, then if it is perfect or another sometimes I'm not that. Sure. But perfection is like.. it's like a flag for me that is, is there in the up in the mountains. And that I don't know if I will catch it. It's not my objective, but it's good for me to see that. That is that is windy in the top of the mountain. And at least I follow that direction without trying to be perfect all the time. But to fly in that direction.
Risto Kuulasmaa 43:17
What does success mean to you?
Aito De la Rua 43:21
Success for me means getting on our way of much simple life. Success for me means trying to get rid of the idea of success that I learned when I was a kid, getting outside of the this idea of material gains or, that I need to be a superpower businessman. Success for me in my way of understanding life.
Aito De la Rua 43:53
And year by year is interesting because it's more into the the light aspect of of, of business. In general is like, for me success is being down to earth barefoot, in a small house with friends and more and more out of the crazy world.
Risto Kuulasmaa 44:20
And what can we learn from imperfection?
Aito De la Rua 44:25
I think imperfection in a way is much more a good teacher that perfection, because imperfection can help you understand which is that you need to perform better.
Aito De la Rua 44:39
I love imperfection. Is for me the great teacher. I don't know if I will... Of course sometimes I have this idea or this was a perfect day or I just did that perfect speech. All of this is was a... But the imperfection for me is, it's more or less the type of teacher that I'm looking for in general. Who gives me this idea of, Aito you need to still working on yourself. So I love imperfections in my life.
Risto Kuulasmaa 45:11
And what would be your advice to people who have problem with the whole psychedelic movement who feel that it's, you know, it's out of control. It's against laws, you know, the whole societies teaching another storyline? What would be your advice to people who kind of tried to align themselves with this new wave of psychedelic medical, medical, psychedelic movement?
Aito De la Rua 45:47
I think as I said before, there's many things for different people. Some people goes with meditation, some people go with hiking, some people go with psychedelics, and people go with different things.
Aito De la Rua 46:04
Psychedelic is one more, it's not the panacea. It's not the it's not the way I'm not even saying okay, this is the way if you are deprressed or this is the way you need to have an amazing experience. It's just another way, and it's a good one.
Aito De la Rua 46:19
And it's a good one. And basically the science is saying, it's a good one.
Aito De la Rua 46:24
Because the psilocybin and it's amazing the world of the of the mushroom. It's the third kingdom on earth. And a so powerful how they work, below the trees, connecting the trees and do like amazing, general things for nature, I think life in the earth will be impossible without them.
Aito De la Rua 46:46
And in a way I feel it do the same in our minds. They are connectors of neurons, and ways in our mind that are not yet connected. For different reasons, sometimes for an injury, sometimes for depression sometimes because we forgot, I always like to say that, in a way, psilocybin or psychedelics helps you to remember what we already forgot, but we have always inside. So is not the answer to many things. We are not the type of company who says okay, this is the answer. Its just one more way and it's a beautiful one maybe it's not for everyone.
Aito De la Rua 47:25
And I understand people that don't like it. Again, we're not endorsement, these as the as the way for healing. I mean, nobody will do many things but not psychedelics. But this is another beautiful way. Beautiful to experiment and to see what has to give to any different person
Risto Kuulasmaa 47:48
Beautiful and after all this, the journey, the transformation, the new business. If you look at yourself five years from here, what would be the perfect place for you?
Aito De la Rua 48:04
I think I want to be in a little town in the mountains from an old village. Where you know with this stones type of house. In this... with all memories and it's so interesting for me how things are changing in my life? And that's a good question how I envision myself and I see myself barefoot, eating bread with olive and tomatoes, in a very old house with very good connection to keep writing but maybe without of any of the material things that are around me.
Risto Kuulasmaa 48:49
And who are with you they're
Aito De la Rua 48:54
My partner, some few friends and people I would love to work with. I don't know, as I said, I love to get to know people that I don't know and I will love to this journey know that also into psychedelics but into healing and transformation.
Aito De la Rua 49:17
I think I will have my little community and people who are coming to this old town village in order to get an experience with nature. With telepathy we coming back to nature. I would love to be a host in this little village up in the mountains to see if there is something there I can share with others.
Risto Kuulasmaa 49:41
Telepathy. That's something you you've been diving recently. Can you can you share a bit about that?
Aito De la Rua 49:47
Yeah. So I did this course with an amazing German doctor. Shr doing this telepathy classes and courses which is so interesting. Because basically trying to connect with the with the spirit of animal, plants, trees. There is a way to communicate with all of them in a ways what we said before about Spinoza and the connection with everything, there's so much information out there that we don't know how to communicate without information.
Aito De la Rua 50:21
Of course, sometimes you have the feeling that you can talk to your dog, or you know, what happening to the dog, or your cat, is sometimes with a horse. But so telepathy is a little bit of instructions in how to make that open gate, how to open your communication through these channels with.. it was amazing, because I was meditating with a very old 800 year old tree, an olive tree, and I sat down there and but for the first time, I was able to ask questions to the trees and try to understand and receive their information back.
Aito De la Rua 50:58
And it it happens I mean, everything is talking into nature. And so telepathy is a very beautiful way of interacting with them.
Risto Kuulasmaa 51:08
What the tree told you?
Aito De la Rua 51:10
The tree told me something very beautiful, because he is like 800 years approx and, he told me he, Aito can you see. You're putting sometimes too much thinking process, thinking that because you're getting older, you have to rush because this will be the best years of your life now 3-4-5. But then after 50 you're going to be older and you need to hurry up.
Aito De la Rua 51:36
But look at myself, I'm 800 years. Each time is better, for me. So getting older is getting wiser. Take out your thinking process of the equation. Enjoy life and remember always that old people is... they are the masters and you are in the way to be your master. So don't get hurry. Just walk and enjoy the ride.
Risto Kuulasmaa 52:00
Wow, what a perfect moment.
Aito De la Rua 52:02
That was a perfect moment.
Risto Kuulasmaa 52:06
Thank you so much for being guest then friend and brother. I really appreciate this talk. Thank You.
Aito De la Rua 52:14
Thank you Risto, very much. Thank you for your invitation and hope to see you soon and keep talking about life in our path.
Risto Kuulasmaa 52:22
Yes, thank you.
Risto Kuulasmaa 52:27
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Risto Kuulasmaa 52:32
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Risto Kuulasmaa 52:44
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