Episode 002 - Helena Gualinga
When we learn about the essential concepts of segregation, inequality and extractivism
Helena Gualinga (b. 2002) is an Ecuadorian environmental and human rights activist from the Kichwa Sarayuku community in Pastaza, Ecuador. She is a spokesperson for the Sarayaku Indigenous community and her activism includes exposing the conflict between the local community and oil companies by carrying an empowering message among the youth in local schools across Ecuador, South America and beyond.
EPISODE SUMMARY
Helena explores the heritage, history, culture, rights and the future of indigenous people of her home country Ecuador and reflects on her own memories, views and experiences on hugely crucial topics like biodiversity, exploitation and climate change.
RECORDED AT
On a patio at Alfama, Lisbon, Portugal, in one gentle September Saturday.
“Our communities are the ones that were most affected by colonization, now by segregation and inequalities and poverty and extractivism and climate change. How is now indigenous people responsibility to heal the rest of the world?”
KEYWORDS & TRANSCRIPTION
Indigenous people, community, biodiversity, indigenous communities, imperfection, harm, happening, decisions, creating, culture, spirituality, exploitation, life, territories, understand, ayahuasca
SPEAKERS
Helena Gualinga & Risto Kuulasmaa
Helena Gualinga 00:06
Our communities are the ones that were mostly affected by colonisation now by segregation, and inequalities and poverty and extractivism and climate change.
Helena Gualinga 00:18
Like, how is it how is it now indigenous peoples responsibility to heal the rest of the world.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:30
Indigenous people make up just 6% of the global population, but they store and protect 80% of the Earth's remaining biodiversity.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:41
Helena Gualinga is a 20 year old Ecuadorian, environmental and human rights activist from the Sarayaku community.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:51
Their community is known to defeat the government in a president court case, sending a message to the governments and multinational companies to respect the indigenous land and their culture.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:03
Helena is an influencer followed by 10k's of young followers, and a prolific spokesperson meeting world leaders on warriors platforms such as the UN, COP and World Economic Forum.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:17
I'm grateful to Helena for being so kind and patient with my imperfect questions, and for generously sharing her thoughts and her indigenous wisdom.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:30
This is Talks of imperfection. Welcome to the Jungle.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:36
Please walk us through why the indigenous communities are on the front line in the battle against climate change and their loss of biodiversity. Why are these themes so important to indigenous communities?
Helena Gualinga 01:51
Well, first of all, in the way that our relationship is with nature, it's a part of our identity and lifestyle.
Helena Gualinga 02:00
So just because of that, it's such an essential part of our life, that if it if our nature or surrounding our environment is affected, or destroyed.
Helena Gualinga 02:11
That is for us, like it's affecting us.
Helena Gualinga 02:14
It's destroying us.
Helena Gualinga 02:16
And we see ourselves as part of nature.
Helena Gualinga 02:19
So we always say this, that harm to a person is directly harm to nature, and harm to nature is directly harm to a person.
Helena Gualinga 02:30
But it's also when it comes to you know, the extractive industries. Our you know, our communities are on the frontlines against extractivism taking all the consequences of political persecution for standing up against oil and mining companies.
Helena Gualinga 02:51
If they do get into our communities, you're on the frontlines to all of the pollution that comes with it, you know, pollution in the water.
Helena Gualinga 03:02
There are communities that now have mercury in the water because mining companies started coming in or have oil in their waters.
Helena Gualinga 03:12
But then the issue that the crisis that the fossil fuel industry is creating what just climate change is also impacting mostly indigenous communities.
Helena Gualinga 03:24
And yet we if we look at the world and see okay, so where have we most biodiversity preserved or pristine forests or water sources?
Helena Gualinga 03:33
Those are still under indigenous people's lands. So there is this pattern of indigenous people always being on the frontlines always being the targets.
Helena Gualinga 03:45
But somehow, they've managed to still be the ones that have stewardship and custodianship over forests and ecosystems.
Helena Gualinga 03:59
And I think that says a lot about the culture but also the deep understanding that indigenous people have have of nature.
Risto Kuulasmaa 04:08
And your community is quite deep in the jungle, right?
Risto Kuulasmaa 04:17
Could you describe if someone would visit you from US? What would be the route?
Helena Gualinga 04:23
Well, yeah, first you have to arrive in Quito. From Quito you have to drive around five hours to the closest town which is Puyo, and from Puyo you take either a canoe or an aeroplane to my community.
Helena Gualinga 04:39
So from Puyo you would have to drive two hours to the river and then to get canoe for about three or four hours or by aeroplane it's 25-30 minutes.
Helena Gualinga 04:50
So it's pretty far away because we don't have roads there. And that is also the reason why we still have rainforest there basically
Risto Kuulasmaa 05:00
And how big is the community?
Helena Gualinga 05:03
So territory wise, it's 140,000 hectares of pristine rainforest. Basically.
Helena Gualinga 05:12
There are about 1200 - 1300 people based in the community, but people are also living on the outside. And I wouldn't be able to say how many we are.
Helena Gualinga 05:22
But we're quite a lot now. Nowadays. Yeah, it's, it's been growing
Risto Kuulasmaa 05:26
Nice. And you got your own schools. And,
Helena Gualinga 05:29
Yeah, we have small community schools, we have one high school, but there is so much that needs to be done, when it comes to education in our communities.
Helena Gualinga 05:39
I myself would really like to work on that. And in the future, I'm involved in some initiatives to improve education in my community, and really happy about that.
Risto Kuulasmaa 05:51
And you are part of fun activist community. Could you walk us through what kind of changes your family has has created for your community?
Helena Gualinga 06:05
Well, I wouldn't say it's, it's my family, like the entire community so engaged.
Helena Gualinga 06:13
I guess, you know, a lot of my family members have been leaders, etc. But it's, it's kind of just like, everyone's role to contribute to the community. So you just need to find your role in that. And that is, what community essentially is about.
Helena Gualinga 06:35
So I think that, you know, like, my family has done whatever we can, and then everyone's contributing, and in some ways, yeah, I think the leadership part has been really strong in my family.
Risto Kuulasmaa 06:59
What's your message to the world?
Helena Gualinga 07:03
Even if, if we stop emitting, like today, there will still be 27 centimetres of sea level rise.
Helena Gualinga 07:13
That is, I don't think we can imagine how what that will look like.
Helena Gualinga 07:17
Everything that's being done to harm nature to cut down forrest to continue emitting to continue exploiting oil should be completely illegal.
Helena Gualinga 07:28
Like it's putting so many people in danger.
Helena Gualinga 07:32
It's, it's crazy.
Helena Gualinga 07:33
If we just saw what happened in Pakistan, 30 million people are displaced and have no food or shelter.
Helena Gualinga 07:44
If, you know, a couple of people could do that, let's say them put 30 million people in a box and do something like that to them.
Helena Gualinga 07:53
That would be completely insane. They would be sentenced to I don't know how many lives in prison,
Helena Gualinga 07:59
Because it's behind, they're hiding behind corporations and businesses. It's somehow illegal and completely possible.
Helena Gualinga 08:09
And it's been so for, I don't know how many years for for. And to me, it's it's completely insane that that is allowed, you know, like, everyone knows, all the decision makers knows what is happening, and what is at risk and what is what they are, what they're playing with.
Helena Gualinga 08:30
And yet, they just continue to let it happen.
Helena Gualinga 08:37
That that is I just can't really understand it with like coming up with these false solutions as the carbon market and celebrating, quote, unquote, "climate victories" when new technology is, is is found or invented, which on a small scale, sure, it's, it's good.
Helena Gualinga 09:00
But if we're looking at the bigger pictures, we're just going to worse so all these small victories, sure, they can be really good. And we should not say that they're bad.
Helena Gualinga 09:11
But it's not making a difference on the, on the global climate directly.
Helena Gualinga 09:18
I know people are like, well, we shouldn't be too radical about this.
Helena Gualinga 09:22
But I don't understand what else could now like at this stage actually have an impact. And people might think that that sounds crazy, but what's actually crazier is to let the world like literally burned down in front of us and not do anything.
Helena Gualinga 09:37
I think that is completely insane.
Risto Kuulasmaa 09:45
Do you remember a moment where you really felt that you were hurt or like you really created an impact?
Helena Gualinga 09:56
Well, it's it's a hard question actually. And because I'm always wondering this, like, are people actually listening?
Helena Gualinga 10:08
Is it actually worth it?
Helena Gualinga 10:10
I'm always questioned having these questions.
Helena Gualinga 10:15
Because I don't really know. Because I can't not read their minds, I can listen to their feedback, look at their reactions.
Helena Gualinga 10:24
But I have a hard time measuring to what extent that is impacting people. And that might just be from my own perspective. Maybe other people can say like, no, like this is how much impact they've had.
Helena Gualinga 10:36
But that is also one of the reasons why I think that this needs to go further than the talking and the sharing.
Helena Gualinga 10:44
Because I want to see measurable impact.
Helena Gualinga 10:48
Actually, like a couple of days ago, I spoke at a panel. And in front of students, I think it was around 1000 students, business school students, which is an interesting crowd to me, because I've never had that one before.
Helena Gualinga 11:06
But it's also because I know that they have another perspective than what I would have, but the response that I got was really, really positive.
Helena Gualinga 11:20
And I think, for me there, that is the challenge, because I need to translate what I'm trying to say, into their language sometimes, or into concepts that they would understand.
Helena Gualinga 11:20
So that is a challenge for me. And I think it was it was quite fun to to try to do that. So I think that I mean, it's the most recent one, but I think it's also the one that I've enjoyed the most, because it was a little bit different, in a way. But we'll see.
Risto Kuulasmaa 11:54
How you take care of your own well being?
Helena Gualinga 12:00
That's a good question.
Helena Gualinga 12:02
I think for a lot of young people right now, like, that is actually very hard.
Helena Gualinga 12:09
The future that we are imagining right now is not the most positive one.
Helena Gualinga 12:17
Among, you know, people in my of my generation, there's a lot of fear and anxiety and hopelessness, because of the climate crisis, mostly where people do not see a safe future.
Helena Gualinga 12:36
And I think with all the things that I'm seeing that are happening back in Ecuador, or in other countries, it's even tougher, because it's already happening now.
Helena Gualinga 12:49
So that can be very overwhelming and to see, you know, issues related to gender, or to the environment, or just all these social problems that exist, like to be honest, everyone's still figuring that out of how do we take care of ourselves?
Helena Gualinga 13:09
And how are we okay, with what's happening?
Helena Gualinga 13:12
How can we accept that everything is not perfect right now, but still not give up?
Helena Gualinga 13:21
Because I know, there's a lot, there's this mindset that okay, well, I'm studying Business, I know that climate change is going to be really bad for the planet, but I'm going to work in an oil company and get money because I might as well make some money while we're alive.
Helena Gualinga 13:36
You know, that is there is that mindset. So how do we avoid to get to that point of hopelessness and giving up that we still can be part of creating change.
Helena Gualinga 13:50
I wouldn't be able to say how, but I'm always inspired by my own community. And I go back there, and I always feel energised and know, you know, know, the why I'm trying to do what I do.
Helena Gualinga 14:05
And that's the most important part for me. So when I was really, like, down or at a low point in my life, I went to my community and spend time there and, and really, like felt like I need to go back. So for me, that is something that has worked to go home,
Risto Kuulasmaa 14:25
And which personal imperfection you are working on right now?
Helena Gualinga 14:30
That's a good one.
Helena Gualinga 14:31
A lot of them, not just one I think I have so many.
Helena Gualinga 14:38
I think everyone that talks to me or sees me they're like, Oh, you're very confident and you're not really afraid or ashamed of anything that you're saying. And I'm not.
Helena Gualinga 14:48
But every day kind of keeping up that confidence or the or finding that confidence and power in my words and what I believe in can sometimes be hard and you can imagine yourself, I'm a young woman, and I've sat down with many big people and, and young Indigenous woman, you need to have a strong mentality to be able to, to sit down and be completely confident in every single word that you express.
Helena Gualinga 15:17
And I'm definitely working on that. And it's part of part of my growth. But yeah, a lot of a lot of a lot of my characteristics I'm still working on, I think there's so many things I'm working on.
Risto Kuulasmaa 15:34
Something changed in inside me when we came together, so we met in, Glasgow in COP, and I was invited, luckily, to the scattering, and it was a beautiful moment where indigenous community and Westerners came together, and we had that fireplace.
Risto Kuulasmaa 15:58
And we had like, 100 people and different prayers and songs were sang all around the fire and, and it was such a beautiful moment, where together we looked at better future.
Risto Kuulasmaa 16:15
And, and at least in inside myself something something really moved because I could I could immediately see the suffering, of course, yes, but I also saw the potential of collaboration.
Risto Kuulasmaa 16:32
And I got a lot of new friends like you.
Risto Kuulasmaa 16:36
And also my, my understanding deepened, like in those, those two days, all of a sudden, I, I received so many teachings from elders and for example, I learned that yes, of course, we should now immediately, clean the mess, and we should take into account what has happened and how, how the indigenous communities have suffered because of the the, you know, old all the way back to the colonial allistic times.
Risto Kuulasmaa 17:13
But also, I learned that there is willingness for collaboration, and openness with respect. And one interesting thing I learned from Auntie Ivy, is she said that when you when you meet and try to collaborate with indigenous people never go with your own agenda.
Risto Kuulasmaa 17:40
Always ask, how can how can we help? How can we collaborate? Do you have any other like advice? How to find common ground? How to how to collaborate? How to co create better future?
Helena Gualinga 17:59
Good question. Well, I definitely agree with not going with your own agenda, I think it's a lot about decolonizing yourself in the process.
Helena Gualinga 18:12
Decolonizing mindsets or if you don't want to use the word decolonizing. Well, deconstruction, deconstructing habits that do harm other people, because in the end, all the privileges that exist in other parts of the world have come from the suffering of people in other parts of the world.
Helena Gualinga 18:35
And that has also shaped the social atmosphere and the social understanding around indigenous people in other parts of the world.
Helena Gualinga 18:45
So that is the first step to understand that reality, and try to see it from the perspective of the people that have been that have been harmed.
Helena Gualinga 19:01
And I think it's also important to change the mindset of, we're going to help you because everything is so terrible for you, too. How do we be allies to you and support in a organic way that respects your values, your traditions, and does not impose again, even if it's unconsciously, my agenda, or your agenda? And that is it's hard, but it's things need to be done, right.
Risto Kuulasmaa 19:36
And the problem is so much in the structures, while the indigenous people represent the minority of the population.
Risto Kuulasmaa 19:46
You guys, you are you're the keepers and the stewards of the majority of the biodiversity and for me, it just doesn't make any sense. Like, why don't we have proper indigenous representatives? Making decisions over this planet?
Helena Gualinga 20:08
Definitely
Risto Kuulasmaa 20:08
It just doesn't make any sense.
Helena Gualinga 20:11
Yeah.
Helena Gualinga 20:12
Tell me about it.
Helena Gualinga 20:15
I think that's one of the things that I'm really passionate about that increasing indigenous participation in decision making.
Helena Gualinga 20:24
Not just to be talking or being inspiring, but to actually be part of be part of the decision making.
Helena Gualinga 20:33
And let's also talk about, you know, decision making isn't just to sit down and say yes or no, it's a longer process.
Helena Gualinga 20:44
And that will take time. And if you think of, I guess, quote, unquote, like Western governance, and indigenous governance, those are completely different. And to come together and have decision making that actually works for both that will take time and they will, it will be a process.
Helena Gualinga 21:04
I think a lot of times the, the how people justify themselves for not inviting indigenous people, or given space or platforms, indigenous people as well, they don't have that technical experience or ability, like it could be all from not speaking English, to maybe not have an understanding in international law, or the more more technical parts.
Helena Gualinga 21:34
And that's why they like to put us on panels and so that we can inspire people and inspire the people that are going to make decisions while not letting them make the decisions themselves.
Helena Gualinga 21:48
And that's why this kind of current governance doesn't really work and decision making process doesn't work, because it's built not to involve indigenous people.
Helena Gualinga 21:58
And I had not, I had not understood this before, I was like, so why are we not just bringing them to the table? Well, it's not about bringing the to the table, it's about creating the table that actually is supposed to make space for indigenous people. Because if not, it will not work. And that is a process that will take time. But it won't happen if there's no initiative and ambition to do so.
Risto Kuulasmaa 22:19
What do you think what would happen if the 1000 biggest company CEOs would have an indigenous advisor, each of them?
Helena Gualinga 22:30
Um, I really do wonder if it would make such a big difference. I mean, there might be some changes.
Helena Gualinga 22:36
But again, that is, again, it's still the, it's still the same structure.
Helena Gualinga 22:41
So it's putting an advisor, and then they might or might not listen to them. And I think it's, it's still the same structure, it's just like, we add a little plus to it.
Risto Kuulasmaa 22:56
So we need to put them as CEOs then.
Helena Gualinga 22:59
I mean, that would be interesting.
Helena Gualinga 23:01
But I think, again, the position of a CEO, it's, it's also built on this triangle of getting to the top. And that is not what indigenous communities or decision making looks like.
Helena Gualinga 23:14
So it would not be organic for us to do so. But of course, it would be interesting to see more CEOs and in general see more indigenous people in high positions.
Helena Gualinga 23:24
Because it might be different.
Helena Gualinga 23:28
But I deeply believe in creating new ways of decision making and change. Because the one the structures that we have today do not really work.
Helena Gualinga 23:39
So I'm not saying no to indigenous CEOs, I'm just thinking, I don't think it's the solution. But it's probably a better option. You know,
Risto Kuulasmaa 23:50
What would be your advice? You guys are specialists when it comes to climate change? How on earth we could get more into kind of collaborative mindset and work together?
Helena Gualinga 24:03
Well, I think it's a coming together of all relevant sectors, you know, indigenous people that also can make decisions. We need people from the scientific world and and people that do make decisions, and that would be really good if they were indigenous people as well.
Helena Gualinga 24:21
How can we incorporate indigenous people?
Helena Gualinga 24:25
So that their, you know, knowledge actually has impact. And I do not think that that works through an advisor, or as a speaker or as a keynote speaker. I mean, it will touch people it will change people's minds, but there is no structural change then and that is what we're looking for. Like that's what so urgently needed right now.
Helena Gualinga 24:52
I wish I had the answer to how we how we can do that. But I think even starting the conversation will Um, you know, by that we will start to find our way towards that.
Risto Kuulasmaa 25:07
I've seen a rising interest towards the indigenous wisdom and spirituality. Do you see there any kind of ways forward together?
Helena Gualinga 25:24
Well, I think it's, it's interesting that you raised, especially the spirituality part.
Helena Gualinga 25:32
I think people are now desperate and are looking into, you know, other ways of seeing the world and, and that's, and looking to indigenous cultures and knowledges and wisdoms.
Helena Gualinga 25:46
Because that was what always was needed. But when it comes to spirituality, I'm actually very sceptical because there is so much exploitation of it, because if it's, you're not truly have deconstructed what I was talking about earlier, again, this becomes a practice of exploitation.
Helena Gualinga 26:07
And that is, unfortunately, what's happening with indigenous spirituality all over the world, and especially in the Amazon, and in South America, and that is really, really frustrating for me to see, because many justified with good intentions.
Helena Gualinga 26:24
But I have a hard time accepting that we have been taught to accept harm, if it's done in the name of good intentions.
Helena Gualinga 26:37
And that is something that is, you know, we we should not complain about. And I'm getting really tired of that.
Risto Kuulasmaa 26:46
Yeah.
Helena Gualinga 26:48
And I think the exploitation of medicine and spirituality and wisdom is just increasing more and more now that people are turning their, their eyes on to indigenous people. And that's a very serious conversation for us. And, you know, it's, it's harming both biodiversity and cultures and people. And that's why I think people should be really, really careful with that.
Helena Gualinga 27:14
And, and sometimes, you know, you can even feel like, Oh, I've been blessed by a community or an indigenous person, and I'm, I can be a part of this, and I can do this, and I can do that.
Helena Gualinga 27:29
But I would like people that have not grown up in a community do not truly understand what this spirituality is for us and what it looks like and how it works, how good judges of the situation people might might be, even though they feel like they have the the experiences to make those decisions to maybe take medicine or experience in indigenous spirituality, which also I'm you know, I'm I have some, some thoughts about about the need to experience a spirituality.
Helena Gualinga 28:03
For me, it's really like it works. It works in in territories, I have something that is for me, and then other people from other parts of the world, have something that in their territory that they can find.
Helena Gualinga 28:18
But if that has been lost, where you are from, well, I would say begin the journey on to finding that instead of creating this exploitation of other peoples and cultures, spirituality and wisdom.
Risto Kuulasmaa 28:33
Yeah. And now, the Ayahuasca tourism is booming and white man is coming and taking something from you guys. Again, and that obviously wakes up trauma, right.
Helena Gualinga 28:45
Yeah.
Helena Gualinga 28:45
And it's it's something that we're taught to just accept and stay silent about. And I'm, and I'm not just Meebo. So many people are really frustrated about this.
Helena Gualinga 28:55
And I think one issue is that, you know, some indigenous people and communities do allow this and sometimes because there are economic benefits because of it.
Helena Gualinga 29:08
But then also, again, these indigenous people that do it, maybe allow it, they've been through so much trauma and oppression.
Helena Gualinga 29:18
And even though we feel like we've resisted colonisation, some parts of us have been colonised, right.
Helena Gualinga 29:27
And that is also and not... I should be careful with my words now.
Helena Gualinga 29:34
But that is also you know, maybe not understanding like, the depth of impact that this could have when shared with the world.
Helena Gualinga 29:46
And yeah, definitely the exploitation of our medicines is increasing right now on a scale that's really scary.
Helena Gualinga 29:55
And what's really concerning is that this is changing the social dynamics and the cultural practices and communities and it's also harming biodiversity because many people think that they should get feathers and jaguar teeth, jaguar teeth while they are practising Ayahuasca, or other plants. And that is completely not true, but that they should do that.
Helena Gualinga 30:25
But it's, it's creates so much harm to biodiversity and the Jaguar is a, you know, it's a threatened animal. And it's being hunted for the, the one and only reason to sell the Satorious. Like, we, the Jaguar is actually a sacred animal for us. And we wouldn't there, we don't eat the meat, and people do not hunt the Jaguar as a practice.
Helena Gualinga 30:51
So if there are, you know, Jaguar skin or teeth like, in some cases, it can be self defence, but those are very few like. So what I usually now say to people is like, I advise them, if you're buying indigenous crafts, like they're made of beads, and very beautiful things, and you want to support their their work, like sure do that, but do not buy feathers, or anything that comes from animals, even though it might be portrayed as claimed on without harming the animal.
Helena Gualinga 31:32
It's very hard to trace that, and also, because if you do it, someone else will see you and they will do it too. And then this kind of domino effect starts. And it's just, yeah,
Helena Gualinga 31:46
I'm just tired of being polite about it, just don't do it.
Risto Kuulasmaa 31:50
Yeah. And it's so tricky, because the the impact of let's say, the ayahuasca and others, so many people find it, you know, very positive, and, you know, consciousness expanding, and they could say they become better human beings in the best case scenarios.
Risto Kuulasmaa 32:12
And at the same time, you know, it's, we are crossing the border and visiting sacred spaces and your culture and, and it's for a Westerner, it's so hard to understand that we are kind of diving into, into very core of your culture.
Risto Kuulasmaa 32:36
And like, I learned from you that, actually, for example, the the medicine is, it's so, so important part of the community, and quite the young kids are already taught to interact with it.
Risto Kuulasmaa 32:55
And that just shows the distance where we are, like, we we have big challenges to understand that, first of all, that the power of the medicine and secondly, you know, it was maybe not meant to be told that we come and practice.
Helena Gualinga 33:16
Yeah, and this has been done for 1000s of years, right.
Helena Gualinga 33:24
So there is knowledge around that. And I would not, I would not recommend someone from this part of the world at an early age to try this because there is no, there is no expertise around that experience.
Helena Gualinga 33:40
And that is a reason why I'm really sceptical about sharing this with the rest of the world because there is no knowledge around that. And there is no not a practice of it in from in other people's cultures, right.
Helena Gualinga 33:58
But it's also you know, like, yeah, people, people feel people actually feel really hurt and threatened. And I think this conversation is really unfair to them, actually.
Helena Gualinga 34:11
And I think that says a lot about them rather than us.
Helena Gualinga 34:15
It says that they feel like they have the right to practice this. They feel like they are entitled to it and that's why it's uncomfortable and hurts them.
Helena Gualinga 34:29
So I asked myself and then like, so why do you feel entitled to this a practice that has been comes from not that doesn't come from your culture that belongs to someone else's culture and and intimate or private part of their life?
Helena Gualinga 34:46
Why do you suddenly feel like you're entitled to it?
Helena Gualinga 34:51
And then again, it's this habit of being able to take an exploit and get you know, what, whatever you're seeking for?
Helena Gualinga 35:05
And also, why is it suddenly, you know, people are saying, well, people are hurting and we need to heal the world. And yes, but why is that indigenous peoples responsibility?
Helena Gualinga 35:20
And do you not think that indigenous people are hurt?
Helena Gualinga 35:25
Like, there's so much hurting in our communities, like our communities are the ones that were mostly affected by colonisation. Now by segregation, and inequalities and poverty and extractivism and climate change, like, how is it?
Helena Gualinga 35:43
How is it now indigenous peoples responsibility to heal the rest of the world, you cannot lay that on indigenous people and try to extract one of the few things that are keeping indigenous people together and that have been one of the key parts of our identity and knowledge.
Helena Gualinga 36:05
And that is, that is a theft that I cannot, I cannot accept.
Helena Gualinga 36:14
So I'm really questioning this. And I know that this this is hard for people to, to accept, and it can be maybe hurtful, because it feels like you are entitled to it. But this is hurting again, people that has been so hurt that it just doesn't justify.
Helena Gualinga 36:36
It doesn't justify the good that might come out of it.
Helena Gualinga 36:40
From my perspective, and from what I've seen growing up in, in, in a community in the Amazon.
Helena Gualinga 36:48
But yeah, those are really tough conversations to have. Yeah.
Risto Kuulasmaa 36:54
What is your definition of perfection and imperfection?
Helena Gualinga 37:00
I don't believe in perfection, like something can, in the moment feel completely perfect. But it's a feeling and it's an illusion. And I think that's okay, I think we can have the illusion of perfection and enjoy that illusion and experience. But the world is an imperfect place and imperfection is good.
Risto Kuulasmaa 37:26
Yeah. That's a perfect answer. In your activist work, you call it activist work?
Helena Gualinga 37:34
Not really.
Risto Kuulasmaa 37:36
How you call it?
Helena Gualinga 37:37
My work?
Risto Kuulasmaa 37:38
Your work?
Helena Gualinga 37:38
Yeah
Risto Kuulasmaa 37:39
What kind of sacrifices you have made?
Helena Gualinga 37:43
I've been thinking a lot about this. I had a tough couple of months last year.
Helena Gualinga 37:51
I've had a couple of tough periods in my life.
Helena Gualinga 37:56
And this was definitely one of the hardest ones.
Helena Gualinga 37:59
And I was reflecting on a lot of why I was having those thoughts and feelings. And for a moment I was thinking like, Okay, what do I want to do with my life. And I think that's something that people my age go through a lot, but I don't think it in the way that I was feeling it, it was not like a normal thought it was more of like, like, I don't feel like I want to do something.
Helena Gualinga 38:27
And that is something that I've never experienced before in my life, because I've always had like this passion and purpose and and then I think what I've sacrificed is maybe that kind of space in my life when I'm allowed to think of another world. Right?
Helena Gualinga 38:44
So for me, it's always been, well, yeah, thinking of creating another world, but because I've seen all the bad things that I want to fight.
Helena Gualinga 39:00
So I think kind of that, like, I guess I don't know if it's innocent. I think that is something that I've sacrificed. And in some periods of my life, I've not allowed myself to dream, like, freely, maybe I've had a lot of fun in my life.
Helena Gualinga 39:17
But there are also times where I've, you know, prioritise other things that normally people my age would not have.
Helena Gualinga 39:28
And I guess like for me, the biggest sacrifice was moving to Finland. For my education.
Helena Gualinga 39:34
It wasn't a decision that I wanted to make, but I definitely felt like I had to.
Helena Gualinga 39:43
I mean, I wanted to go to school, but if that wasn't necessarily in Finland, I wanted to have a school in my community that I could go to but I couldn't do that.
Helena Gualinga 39:56
So I decided to move to another part of the world and that is pretty big sacrifice at that age. So I think I've had to, like make those decisions that have not been very easy, but I've done.
Helena Gualinga 40:10
Because I've felt that those are the right thing to do. I do not regret myself moving to Finland. But I know that if there were other possibilities, I would have chosen something else.
Risto Kuulasmaa 40:21
What we could learn from the indigenous communities, what do you think we are the kind of key learning learning points?
Helena Gualinga 40:28
Well, I think it's this balance that we've able been able to maintain in with nature.
Helena Gualinga 40:36
I mean, of course, there is a lot of controversy, for example, if indigenous people should be able to hunt in our territories.
Helena Gualinga 40:44
And a lot of indigenous people resist that, because, of course, this has been our way of subsisting for hundreds and 1000s of years, right.
Helena Gualinga 40:54
But it may not be possible and the reality that we live in, but if we would have been able to protect for completely our territories, that would have been, you know, so like normal, that we go hunting, etc, like it would have not created like, done any damage to nature.
Helena Gualinga 41:14
And as I said, despite having all of those threats, we are, we still have been able to preserve forests and ecosystems. So learning how to maintain that balance, and coexisting with the natural world, I think that is the most important lesson and for my community, it's been looking at nature as a living being.
Helena Gualinga 41:39
And that is what also we think that it should have rights as a person has rights, nature also should have rights. And that is something that we are, we are fighting for and promoting the living forest, it's called the...
Risto Kuulasmaa 41:57
If someone is now listening, and wants to find ways to support your work, or in general, the indigenous communities, what would would be your advice?
Helena Gualinga 42:12
I think it's the most important thing is the one that I was talking about before, like, how is my life impacting the lives of others? look at the position or the work that you have, create change, in that. If you work at a bank or a company?
Helena Gualinga 42:30
Are there policies that you can improve, so that they don't hurt and harm indigenous people? Or do you have friends that are indigenous around you, and you can maybe try to understand their realities better?
Helena Gualinga 42:42
So it depends in what situation of life you find yourself in. But look at look at look into your own life and yourself on how do I create a safe a better world for you know, and can give more space to indigenous people, and people that are affected by by these issues.
Helena Gualinga 43:07
And I think, like I always say this, like every decision that we make today, we may need to base it off the fact that the climate crisis is here, even if it's in your workplace, or in politics, or a decision on your day to day.
Helena Gualinga 43:29
And I think same goes for indigenous people and human rights. You know, you need to think of that and be caught, like have that have that consciousness? And I think that's, that's a first step.
Risto Kuulasmaa 43:47
So last question.
Risto Kuulasmaa 43:50
You have, interestingly two audiences, you have a lot of followers in the younger generation, but at the same time you interact with the seniors and the leaders.
Risto Kuulasmaa 44:04
If you just give one advice from your heart for both, what what it would be?
Helena Gualinga 44:14
I think that the kind of leadership that we're looking for is going to lay on the younger generations.
Helena Gualinga 44:21
And that is a completely new kind of leadership.
Helena Gualinga 44:24
Like we need to define what leadership looks like. And I don't think we can even imagine what that would look like. Like even if we're talking about what jobs will look like in 10-20 years.
Helena Gualinga 44:34
Those jobs do not exist today.
Helena Gualinga 44:38
So young people, it's our role to redefine those and accept that like, what people have done for the last decades is that they have just continued to doing what has apparently worked.
Helena Gualinga 44:56
And that is what's different to my generation because we will be a generation Innovation when it comes to leadership and to how this world will work,
Helena Gualinga 45:08
And to the elder generations, it is to accept that because those are the ones that are fighting against that kind of change.
Risto Kuulasmaa 45:20
Yeah, that's amazing ending. Thank you so much.
Helena Gualinga 45:23
Thank you.
Risto Kuulasmaa 45:26
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Risto Kuulasmaa 45:43
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Risto Kuulasmaa 45:46
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Risto Kuulasmaa 45:49
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