Episode 007 - Mickey Meyer
When we learn about the power of self-reflecting in modern leadership
Mickey Meyer (b. 1984) is an America-born and Los Angeles-based little league baseball coach, producer and Oscar-winning network president in Hollywood, California, USA. He’s known for his ground breaking work on the early stages of YouTube and successful acquisition of Vox Media and his latest venture Group Nine Studios generated 8 billion monthly views across 40+ platforms reaching 80 % of Americans in their 20’s.
EPISODE SUMMARY
Mickey reflects on his charmingly successful career in the media industry. We hear his path from humble beginnings as a runner to being a creator at the right place at the right time during the early days of YouTube.
RECORDED AT
Announcer booth of little league ballpark in El Segundo, Los Angeles, California on a pleasant Friday, March evening.
“My parents always told me that I can do anything. As I’ve grown up there was moments of unwinding that, of realizing your own humanity.”
KEYWORDS & TRANSCRIPTION
Moment, perfection, group nine, creator, imperfection, vox media, money, find, little league, baseball, life, maker studios, create, youtube, Oscar, game, producer, president, community
SPEAKERS
Mickey Meyer & Risto Kuulasmaa
Mickey Meyer 00:06
My parents always told me that I could do anything. You know as a grown up, there was moments of unwinding, like realising your own humanity.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:19
Today, guest is Mickey Meyer.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:21
LA based Oscar winning producer and former network president at Group Nine Studios.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:27
As a professional, Mickey was one of the forerunners when YouTube and the creator movement disrupted the media business.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:34
He has worked with stars such as Sarah Silverman, and Michael Cera. And he produced their Oscar winning short film "Two Distant Strangers" for Netflix.
Risto Kuulasmaa 00:45
What makes me excited about Mickey is his special ability to show up as a leader, I admire his leadership across these roles as a president of a company with a 200 million turnover, and a family man and a father of two, for me to remains a mystery from where on earth, he still gets to his drive, to also be a beloved leader, and coach of a little league baseball team.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:14
My name is Risto Kuulasmaa.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:16
And I'm your host at Talks of Imperfection, where we meet nearly perfect people revealing their imperfections. Our intention is to create an encounter, where we learn and get inspired about what kind of role imperfection plays in our private and professional lives.
Risto Kuulasmaa 01:34
Welcome to the show
Mickey Meyer 01:46
I have a moment like a more grandiose encounter with perfection that I think has set the tone for a lot of my life, you know, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, and that my parents always told me that I could do anything, my mom was very, very, you know, a very positive person that imbued in me this, this feeling of like you can be whatever you want to be, and a lot of praise.
Mickey Meyer 02:17
And you know, especially it was the, the eldest son a lot of like, you know, I think for them, the, what's the, apple in there eye, I kind of, you know, feeling of, you're great, you're great.
Mickey Meyer 02:30
You know, you're so good at everything you do.
Mickey Meyer 02:31
And you're so you know, you play baseball, and there's like, "Oh, my God, you're, you're such a great baseball player" played hockey, "you something, you're doing so great", there's so much positive belief that it was a feeling of like, you're perfect, you are amazing, you're so great.
Mickey Meyer 02:45
And I think for me, you know, as a grown up, there was moments of unwinding, like realising your own humanity.
Mickey Meyer 02:55
And then also, maybe another layer deeper of realising that that's okay. Because there was a moment of like, okay, maybe I'm not what I thought my, my parents thought that I was or who they thought that I was.
Mickey Meyer 03:07
And trying to understand what other people thought I was, and then trying to understand, what I thought I was, and understanding what I am, have all been different layers kind of along this journey, but I think as far as like, my first real moment of interaction with the idea of perfectionism was like, "Oh, I am perfect. I'm everything. I'm so good at everything."
Mickey Meyer 03:31
And just this this, you know, very narcissistic. you know, capture of my life.
Mickey Meyer 03:39
And what's been interesting to as I've as I've grown up, in like, starting to unwind this even for my own kids is, I think a lot of that was reinforced in media. It was just a seeing, you know, seeing myself as the main character and every single thing that I watched, i'm blond hair, blue eyed, little white boy watching, you know, all these movies and shows were like that is, that's the main character, you've got Zack Morris and Saved by the Bell, or you had, you know, like Kevin McAllister and Home Alone.
Mickey Meyer 04:09
And like all these iconic movies, it's always like that guy. Maybe his hair's a little bit different, or maybe his eye colours a little bit different. But like, for the most part, like everybody that I saw that look like me was the main character in every movie.
Mickey Meyer 04:20
So yeah, of course, which is, I think, somewhat natural is like, you grow up as a kid, viewing yourself as the centre of the universe.
Mickey Meyer 04:28
And that was my own, I guess definition of perfect perfection from and again I was like, oh, that's like, I am perfect. And unwinding that to be like, No, I'm flawed. I'm very flawed. Here's how I'm flawed and then also that other layer like it's okay to be flawed.
Risto Kuulasmaa 04:44
Let's fast forward. How it felt to hold the Oscar trophy in your hands.
Mickey Meyer 04:51
Unbelievable.
Mickey Meyer 04:51
I mean, a very sobering moment, for sure.
Mickey Meyer 04:54
Where I went through a weird mental you know, rollercoaster of emotions leading up to that moment. And then coming out of that moment that, you know, still I, you know, it's a it's a career aspiration, right, you put that on your dream board as like this is I hope I hit this mark one day and that you're given that that sense of validation.
Mickey Meyer 05:19
And I'm still very young in my career, this was the first film really that I made. I mean, I've made other short films, and I have made a lot of content and produce TV and all this stuff.
Mickey Meyer 05:30
But this is the first time that I'd ever entered something into or we had ever entered something into, an Oscar raise.
Mickey Meyer 05:38
And even just that, like they say it, it's cliche, it was like, even just getting on the shortlist was like, oh my god, this is an unbelievable feeling.
Mickey Meyer 05:46
And then you get on, you get nominated as like, oh my god, we can now say that we're Oscar nominated producers.
Mickey Meyer 05:52
And Oscar nominated, you know, writers and whatever.
Mickey Meyer 05:55
And then you have that moment where it happens. And it is. It was yeah, major sense of validation. But then you have that I'm now an Oscar and I'm an Oscar winning producer. In front of your name, it changes your life forever.
Risto Kuulasmaa 06:12
Can you describe the exact moment when you touch the trophy?
Mickey Meyer 06:17
I can, but I think that the moment almost right before, may be more more meaningful?
Mickey Meyer 06:23
Because I know that this was, you know, within the questions that you have laid out was, you know, was the closest you felt to perfection.
Mickey Meyer 06:31
And it was that moment for me.
Mickey Meyer 06:34
So I, how it worked. Because we have this happened in the in the COVID year. Or the I guess the second COVID year was for the Academy.
Mickey Meyer 06:44
But, you know nobody was allowed to go to the ceremony other than you have two people that are allowed to go. And so it's the writer and writer-director combo of Travon Free and Martin Desmond Roe, who ultimately we're going to go and then everybody else for all every film had like their own watch parties.
Mickey Meyer 07:06
And you'd go and it's all the other producers and you know, cast and whoever who's, you know, financiers, whoever just been supporting the project and their significant other spouses, whatever, get together, watch the screening together.
Mickey Meyer 07:19
And I was supposed to go to it. But I had a little league game scheduled at the same time, but I was a manager of my older son's team.
Mickey Meyer 07:30
It was like a decently important game too.
Mickey Meyer 07:32
And I don't know why I made the decision, I guess just because my maybe priorities are hopefully right, or maybe out of skew, but like I decided to manage the game, the game ended, then the idea was I was going to come home because the award was later in the catalogue or later the things to be announced.
Mickey Meyer 07:54
And I would come home, change and then go to the watch party.
Mickey Meyer 07:58
And it just so happened that like right when the game finished, they I got a text that said like, "Hey, we're about to be announced." And they moved it up.
Mickey Meyer 08:06
And so I in, because they don't ahead of the ceremony, they don't tell you when the things are going to be announced. There's like a they, they're very "anti that".
Mickey Meyer 08:16
And so it's it's like, you have your connections, you have your PR context and say like, Hey, it might be here, might be there. So we thought it was gonna be the end, but you had no idea.
Mickey Meyer 08:24
And so we get the text, hey, it's next up, we look it home from here. And my whole family just happened to be with me, you know, on that day. And so we walked in, turned it on. And they said he had next up, this is the award and everybody kind of gathered around the TV to watch it.
Mickey Meyer 08:43
And it got announced.
Mickey Meyer 08:45
And yeah, that was that was it.
Mickey Meyer 08:48
Like that was the most perfect moment I think I'll ever have in my life of just like getting this crazy recognition for something that I've worked so hard for, in so many different ways that just the universe kind of rewarded me with this moment, and rewarded everybody at the moment. But like, you know, the that that feeling to have that moment, surrounded by my family to be able to watch it turn with my boys, two younger boys who were both like jumping up and down and their cousins who were there, you know, are my nieces and nephews who feel like they're my own children at times and have my wife there, and my parents there and just have you know, champagne.
Mickey Meyer 09:23
And so that celebration, that moment was unlike anything I think I'll ever be able to experience for the rest of my life or ever have experienced up until then.
Mickey Meyer 09:31
And so yeah, later then that night, went to went to the watch party and Martin and Travon had like their entrance into the party shortly after I got there and I got to hold it. But you know, it's in a sea of people with everybody trying to get their piece of that action and trying to feel like they're a part of it.
Mickey Meyer 09:49
And there's definitely like a stillness to being able to hold it there. And then we went out and party later that night. As you do and I got to spend more time with it. Just kind of like, hold it and sit with it.
Mickey Meyer 10:01
And it was just like, you know, it's, it's a, it's such a dumb thing, because it's a, it's a piece of metal and it's, you know, you care so much about this thing and have such aspirations and so many, you know, reflections about it and so you're staring at it, realising the insanity of it while also feeling, you know, the highest highs that you've ever felt, you know, on a career level that this is part of your journey now.
Mickey Meyer 10:33
So yeah, I mean, like, it's, you know, it's a hunk of metal, but it's not.
Mickey Meyer 10:36
It's it symbolises so much. And so it's just that, like, physical manifestation of that, that symbolism that? Yeah, it's definitely, you know, grabbing my hand, you can see as a podcast, but take them grab my hand as if I'm holding it right now. And so yeah, that was the moment.
Risto Kuulasmaa 10:53
Cool. Walk us through the carrier that ended to that moment and is continuing, obviously. Could you walk us through your carrier and reflect it round the perfection and imperfection on the way?
Mickey Meyer 11:10
Totally. I think you know, so when I first, when I first got, you know, my first introductions into entertainment came so much through just like being living in a small town, watching movies and TV and being in awe of it.
Mickey Meyer 11:24
And that was my escape. That was my like, this is a world outside of it. Outside of my life, and I play a lot of sports, that was my, like, day ones, what I wanted to do, and when I realised that that was not maybe in the cards for me, entertainment was my, was my happy.
Mickey Meyer 11:41
And I had always come to this, you know, idea in my head of like, that's, if you find the thing that you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And so I was like, Okay, well, this is what I wanna.
Mickey Meyer 11:52
This is what I want to dedicate my life to.
Mickey Meyer 11:53
I do love Entertainment, I want to be a part of that. And I want to help make and I don't think I really even knew what that meant yet.
Mickey Meyer 11:58
And so I had an internship first, when I had gone to school in Colorado wanted to go into the entertainment industry, I came out for the summer for an internship on the West Wing, a TV show.
Mickey Meyer 12:09
And, you know, work that with the idea of like, okay, I'm gonna go back to school decided that I fell in love with California I do wanna leave California, and was kind of a moment of like, okay, if I'm going to do this, this is this, I got an entrance into it, they had offered me a job as a PA.
Mickey Meyer 12:25
And so I stayed on as a PA and production assistant.
Mickey Meyer 12:28
And so like, I decided to then go to community college. And even that was, I'll say, like, checking back to the perfectionism, or perfection piece of it was like, that was a really hard decision for me. Because, you know, you're chasing this idea of what perfection has been built into you like, oh, I go to high school, I graduate, I go to college, I graduate, and then I get a job, and leaving prestigious college to then go to a community college that anybody can get into was this moment of like, Am I really going to do this?
Mickey Meyer 13:03
Like, am I okay?
Mickey Meyer 13:04
And I don't know why? I didn't really like there was a there wasn't, am I really going to do this, but it almost never was a question. It was like, No, this is what I want to do. And this is like what I think will work and everything is going to work out fine.
Mickey Meyer 13:17
I just had that belief, I guess.
Mickey Meyer 13:19
And I went to Santa Monica College and busted my butt there, continued working on the West Wing, and then wanted to transfer into USC because it had, it was great and film and TV.
Mickey Meyer 13:29
And if I wanted to do entertainment, that's where I wanted to learn.
Mickey Meyer 13:32
And so I applied to all these schools and got in bunch of different places was about to go to UCSB, but to go to like UC Irvine or I don't even remember what some of these other schools were and got into USC last of all of them.
Mickey Meyer 13:45
Went there, stopped working on the West Wing met at USC a group of comedians and called that a sketch group called Good Neighbour started kind of working with them. Sarah was in the theatre school had a lot of talented acting friends, which is kind of what got me into producing and started making me realise like okay, I can help you I understand some of the mechanics of this because of the the internship and the production stuff.
Mickey Meyer 14:11
And I was starting to work my way up the ladder on the producing side. And it was terrible. It was you know, work it never you know, what is the you know, there was the expression I just said is like, you know, find the thing you love you love working in your life. It was like that was never had never been felt more wrong, because I was like, this is nothing but work and I hate all of this.
Mickey Meyer 14:33
And it was nothing glamorous. you know, your PA was like, hey, somebody that you know, some homeless person just like pooped in the alley over there. We need to go pick it up.
Mickey Meyer 14:42
And it was like "Dear Mom, Hollywood's great."
Mickey Meyer 14:45
This is not what I imagined at all. But it was work and it was in the entertainment history. So I was like, I guess this is what what it is and then on the parallel path to that. The sketch comedy group that I've been working with Good Neighbour had met this guy at Danny Chapin, and who started was starting to make YouTube videos.
Mickey Meyer 15:07
And I went, and I started to make YouTube videos, starting to build a company around making YouTube videos. And I went to shoot one of these videos with them just because I had a camera that they loved and they needed someone to come help them. I went and shot a video that was the first ever "Epic Rap Battles of History".
Mickey Meyer 15:27
And that kind of blew up. And it was this very, like, you know, eye opening moment of, this is really fun, like, I came and made this video and it was just like kids playing around and we shot it with like a work light and like, you know, green cloth that was bought at a fabric store or not like, you know, green screen or anything like that.
Mickey Meyer 15:48
And that version of entertainment was so much more enjoyable than the like, hey, we need coffee, can you go and grab it that was like this is even though this is probably gonna be less money like this is way more interesting.
Mickey Meyer 16:01
And teamed into maker and like you talked about things being perfect. Like it was the opposite, right? It was like there was nothing that was being done right. Other than having fun, like, that was there and that was the core of so much of it, the ambition was there, Danny Chapin, who found it like had had great vision for it.
Mickey Meyer 16:19
But when it came to like executing at a layer of like, this is how I want you know, like how production which is typically very like if you're doing it at a higher budget levels are very, very buttoned up overly thought out like over like there's no risk involved in it there is like you're thinking about what meals you're gonna buy, you know, five days prior to ordering lunch for the people it's like it's just not you know, there's no risk involved whereas this was flying by the s**ting on your pants. And no ability to put forth into anything as much as just trying to keep up with the pace of what the internet was starting to provide.
Risto Kuulasmaa 16:54
And what year was this?
16:56
This is like 2000.
Mickey Meyer 16:59
Oh man, 2008 - 2009 somewhere in there? Maybe 2010 even. This is like Makers started right after the Partnership Programme in 2006, started for YouTube and so it was probably shortly after that that Maker Studios really started to form.
Risto Kuulasmaa 17:17
Can you describe those days because, you know, some of the listeners are not that educated about the Creator Movement and the rise of the Youtubers. Can you kind of describe what was going on back in that time?
Mickey Meyer 17:30
Yeah, so that that time was jus...t it was sort of felt so just experimental you know, it felt like there was just so much, so much happening that felt, in so many ways organic but also just felt like pure resistance to let's not do things the way that they've been done because something's not working, you know, it felt if you were on the outside looking in from how things had relationships had been formed, it was an impossible thought that you could come up with a show idea and pitch it and get it sold.
Mickey Meyer 18:07
Like that was just no.. there was no, there was zero possibility for you to be creative in moment one.
Mickey Meyer 18:13
You could maybe go join like a writers room or something and like work your way into it and you know find yourself as a 50 year old later on down the line was kind of like the you know, a Lure that you might be able to create something but like, there's no financing available, there's not you know, these these networks and TV networks like they were had established buyers that, are established sellers that like I just they were buying from the same people over and over and over again as opposed to buying from someone new so why would they trust you and like that idea of like a talent getting somehow discovered was more on the acting side than the producing or the filmmaking side?
Mickey Meyer 18:50
Unless you could do what do the impossible so that feeling that those early days was almost like a just a rejection of that notion of like no, we want to make whatever we want to make I don't want to you know, if I'm selling you a comedy I don't want you to tell me that the blue chairs funnier than the green chair I want to be able to decide what's funniest I want to make it the way that I want to make it and so that was what I think brought so many people into that moment of just like we're gonna just figure it out and Danny and the Maker team did.
Mickey Meyer 19:21
Like they took a stab at like we think that this is how it's gonna work and much you know just coincided with how YouTube was evolving in the fact that they're starting to pay out money meant like we can make something. It's not going to be Game of Thrones but we can go put this money to make a thing that we want to make and that was like that was all we needed to then just grow that piece of it.
Risto Kuulasmaa 19:41
And then you you move forward with the maker when Sarah Silverman came to the picture.
Mickey Meyer 19:49
Yeah, so I you know, was that maker for a while. Maker went from what was like eight employees to 300 seemingly overnight over the course of I think like two years and took out investment money and what I fell in love with about Maker and that autonomy started to shift a little bit and just the need of growing a business and time the MCN business model was, you know, it became a game of quantity less than quality, which was antithetical to what I really wanted to do.
Mickey Meyer 20:20
And so we left, I left Maker when I met this guy, Daniel Kellison, who had started to form started to form Jash, really off of a mandate from YouTube where they wanted more original programming, they wanted some celebrity names, they wanted other genres to entice advertisers.
Mickey Meyer 20:36
And so we, Daniel found me by kind of the grace of the universe, and he needed someone that understood how YouTube worked.
Mickey Meyer 20:48
And so brought me in, in early days, as well as our other co founder, Doug DeLuca, who really was the first one that YouTube reached. And Daniel had gone out and tried to put together a group of comedians that would find what we were doing interesting.
Mickey Meyer 21:02
And so he, I think, yes, started with Sarah, Sarah had the same... same, was represented by the same manager as Michael Cera, who then had the same agent as Tim and Eric. And then Reggie was kind of the one that they all unanimously were like, hey, we should bring Reggie into this mix with you. Nobody had really, he had a following, but not like the following that he has now.
Mickey Meyer 21:25
And yeah, we formed Jash, and Jash was its own crazy roller coaster. And we did so much and won, you know, Cannes, in one Sundance and, you know, got me that I got to work with the Obama administration, and help them to understand how influencers and that the YouTube community worked.
Mickey Meyer 21:43
And, you know, the idea in so many ways was to offer that autonomy that I think appealed to me in the early days, and appealed to Daniel about the internet and offered that studio system and autonomy to comedians, because they were probably the most impacted by, hey, green chair is funnier than blue chair and like, comedy, if it's done, right, and then to its best ability is truth.
Mickey Meyer 22:04
And so the less you can water down that truth, the better, in my opinion, and so that, that's kind of where Jash generated from, then Jash, about five years into it, we were out raising a series B, we're talking with Group Nine, and they said, hey, we'd like to acquire you instead invest in you. And we decided to go that path. And so about five years ago, now.
Risto Kuulasmaa 22:31
And what kind of role you did take at Group Nine?
Mickey Meyer 22:34
Yeah, so within Group Nine, now, I oversee all of our original programming, all of our studio efforts, and the President Group Nine Studios, and basically everything that, you know, my focus as I came in was, we need to build out revenue that was not ad sales.
Mickey Meyer 22:50
And so you know, I helped to establish relationships when it came to platforms, and you know, how to how to capitalise on building a YouTube audience and what that meant and how to look at, you know, investing against intellectual property, we started out, you know, the podcasting business and did kind of our own R&D effort around consumer products and what that might mean and how we could start getting affiliate style relationships and what brand licencing mean and things like that, and what original programming meant, and how we think to think about that, and what those types of margins are versus what we want to build long term and then what is that value on intellectual property and in our library and licencing that library out?
Mickey Meyer 23:30
And yeah, it's it's grown leaps and bounds I think was like $100,000 a year, business when we first started, and it's grown very significantly since then. And then we just recently merged with, with Fox Media, who has a treasure trove of amazing brands as well. Group Nine has the Dodo and Nowthis and Seeker and Thrillist, and PopSugar and Jash, obviously, as well, and then has merged with Vox as Vox and Eater and The Verge and, you know, its own trove of brands. The idea is just hey, scale, we need that quantity. Here comes that word again.
Risto Kuulasmaa 24:14
Let's talk about leadership. How you see yourself as a leader what kind of leadership style you are practising?
Mickey Meyer 24:22
Yeah, I it took me a while to understand what being a leader meant, because when I first came into this, you know, my aspiration was never business, you know, it's like, even talked about it before.
Mickey Meyer 24:33
Like, I'm gonna make the decision get involved in entertainment. It was, I had never gone to business school, I've never had the desire to, like raise money for a company or anything like that.
Mickey Meyer 24:43
I kind of happened into it as a means to an ends it was, I want to support my friends who are artists and creators, and that's what I enjoy. So I need to understand how this business works so that I can then help them to navigate it and that was a real like early YouTube maker days.
Mickey Meyer 25:02
And then I found an enjoyment for it, I found enjoyment for like systemizing things and then ultimately for managing people and managing in my best, you know, version of it, or the, you know, what I feel is the best version of management is support is just helping people to unlock their potential, helping them to understand how they can join with other people to accomplish a shared goal.
Mickey Meyer 25:32
And it's taken a long time to get to that, because I think when I first started it, it was like, Okay, well, I know I want to be a good person, and I don't want to be a bad boss. I don't want to be the person you see, you know, in cartoons, that is like yelling at people and any of that.
Mickey Meyer 25:51
And so it was like a little bit of unwinding that idea of like, a boss is someone who yells and a boss is someone who is like saying yes or no to people, in starting to unlock that idea that like no, a boss is the person that helps you to unlock what is possible in your life.
Mickey Meyer 26:08
You know, I have this interview question that I love that is, you know, what, what would you do with $5 million?
Mickey Meyer 26:16
And it always takes people off guard, because you know, it's the interview, and people don't mirror expecting the like, you know, how well do you do Excel? Question.
Mickey Meyer 26:24
And it's my favourite one to ask because you get the best answers. And sometimes people definitely like will give you the edge of they think that you need to hear but be honest, you know, it's like, if you're smart, you're honest, in that moment, because I've gotten answers that are like, "Oh, I would love to be a chef", or !I would do nothing but travel the world" or I would, you know, "I would create this thing", or "I would do that thing".
Mickey Meyer 26:53
And, you know, if that answer doesn't line up with the job that I'm trying to find, and I'm not going to be able to help you do that thing. This is going to be terrible for you, like you're gonna come in, and this isn't that thing that brings you happiness, and I'm going to be asking you to do something that, like helps everybody else and helps this team. And it's going to be consistently at conflict, what with what you enjoy, you know, like that, that that idea of, of a manager telling you to do a thing, because it's what needs to be checked as a box is just such an arcane way to look at it.
Risto Kuulasmaa 27:26
And what's your imperfection as a leader that you are working on?
Mickey Meyer 27:32
I think my imperfection is I mean, I'm still perfect. So you know...
Mickey Meyer 27:39
I mean, I think my my imperfection is maybe attention to details.
Mickey Meyer 27:47
And at the same time, like I find so much more beauty and productivity and not getting so far in the weeds that you would ever compromise someone else's vision.
Mickey Meyer 28:03
And so like that, that perfection for me comes in that like attention to details comes in for something that is like a project that I specifically on that I have a vision for.
Mickey Meyer 28:12
But when it comes to other people's projects, like I don't look as under the microscope, as maybe I should sometimes to catch something that, you know, might help them. But it's also I think it's the kind of give and take, right?
Mickey Meyer 28:26
It's like that happens in a moment to where if I had that attention to detail about something so much so that I'm then suggesting things to you that are complicating what it is that you're trying to create or challenging you in ways that, you know, are going to frustrate and get to the point where it's like this is you're focusing on the wrong things versus focusing on kind of the more grandiose picture of things.
Mickey Meyer 28:54
You know, it's a given a take, I guess.
Risto Kuulasmaa 28:57
And if you look back the path from creator to leader, from creator, to cameraman to President of, of big, big company, what has been the biggest learnings on the way?
Mickey Meyer 29:17
I think the biggest learnings has been on that management piece.
Mickey Meyer 29:20
I think they're still I still would I credit very much my parents my upbringing and the privilege that I had growing up that like I still believe anything, I can do anything. And that is it's an overwhelming piece at times.
Mickey Meyer 29:38
But I'd say the biggest you know, double edged sword here is like the biggest block to you being able to do anything you want to do and the biggest tool to being able to do anything you want to do is other people.
Mickey Meyer 29:51
And if you can, you know find a way to interact with other people in a way that is not was beneficial for you. That is a tool that you can use in so many ways for good, right?
Mickey Meyer 30:08
Like you're not, it removes, hopefully, you know, if you're doing it right, I think you're, you're removing the transactional nature of like, Hey, you can help me to do this thing.
Mickey Meyer 30:17
And, you know, tit for tat. Now I owe you a favour later on as much as like, "Hey, this is a thing we both care about, like, let's find a way to use what we both have in our arsenal to go figure it out, get it done."
Mickey Meyer 30:29
And that, for me, like in this entire journey is something that I take a lot of pride in.
Mickey Meyer 30:41
And I hold very dear to and I'm always maybe self conscious of to have like, I don't want to do something with you. If you're not, if I'm forcing you to do it, you know, like, yeah, there's moments where I need a favour, for sure everybody has that moment. But like, when it comes to larger collaborations, it's like, I, it's so much easier to go about things in that way, as opposed to I'm gonna pay you money to do a thing. And like, that's the only way that we can work together. You know?
Risto Kuulasmaa 31:10
What's your take on success? What does success mean to you?
Mickey Meyer 31:16
Success is, man.. it is...
Mickey Meyer 31:20
I say that, you know, I went on this, this mental roller coaster after after the Oscar.
Mickey Meyer 31:24
And I think that I asked myself this question a lot. And I still ask myself this question a lot, just because that was, you know, that was associated with a version of success for me that like, Okay, I've now achieved this thing. What's next?
Mickey Meyer 31:38
Like, what? Am I happy? Am I not happy? Like, what did this do for me is this success?
Mickey Meyer 31:44
And, you know, I think success for me is that support, and like, finding things that I believe in that I'm able to support and create meaningful change. So like, one thing in particular, right now, that that spawned part of that part of my involvement in that film, "Two Distant Strangers" was I, you know, I've used my skill set now across a lot of this stuff for the biggest, you know, influencers in the world, for the biggest, you know, comedians in the world for, you know, biggest advertisers in the world, corporations in the world, for, you know, the largest sort of largest governments in the world in the United States.
Mickey Meyer 32:29
And it came to this moment of like, okay, I've been a Group Nine for a moment, what do I want to do, like, we're, what do I want to put my skill set behind, because I've used it for everybody else, we have to use it for myself.
Mickey Meyer 32:40
And I've got my two little boys, and my younger son Knox looks just like me, his blond haired, blue eyed, little white boy, by all appearances, and my older son, Logan looks more like my wife who's Ecuadorian and has brown skin, brown hair, brown eyes, and, you know, we watch movies pretty religiously every night, and obviously watch a lot of content, but movies in particular, and it was a very eye opening thing for me, that there's a lot of movies for one of my kids and not a lot for the other.
Mickey Meyer 33:11
And especially during COVID, he, you know, Logan started to go through a little bit of an identity crisis. And, you know, we ended up reading a lot of books. And that helped. And I think that he's now he's a great reader. And I think that he, although he procrastinates, like crazy and half the time, like finishing a book, come on.
Mickey Meyer 33:33
But anyways, that piece of of how things are operating, or how they've been operating, where we've started to address representation at more of an adult level, but for kids, it still doesn't exist in that way yet.
Mickey Meyer 33:47
And being able to see all of your possibilities in the same way that I was afforded, is become a large thing for me. And so that idea of building empathy through representation, and whatever I do, is really become kind of my mission.
Mickey Meyer 34:02
And now and so I'd say like success for me as it exists today might change from how it is exists for me in five years, but it's like, how can I meaningfully contribute to that on a regular basis, and if it's easier as a producer or just putting projects together or finding it the kind of more systematised way to address it that appeals to you know, capitalism so that it will stick?
Mickey Meyer 34:24
That's, that's where I'm currently defining success, you know, on a career level, I think, on a personal level, it is, you know, do I get to spend time with my family? Do Are they happy? And are they you know, am I supporting them? in the way that they need to be supported?
Mickey Meyer 34:41
Just like a manager's like, am I supporting my oldest son to find the things that he loves that aren't necessarily the things that I love? am I supporting my younger son to find the things that he loves that aren't necessarily things that I love? am I supporting my wife so that she's not feeling like you know, an appendage to me or to our boys so that she's finding her version of happiness and things that challenge her along the way.
Risto Kuulasmaa 35:02
What's the most perfect sketch out there?
Mickey Meyer 35:06
Perfect sketch like comedy sketch?
Mickey Meyer 35:10
Oh man, I am a huge fan of "Invisible Dinner" by a Good Neighbour.
Mickey Meyer 35:17
That is a that's a great one.
Mickey Meyer 35:22
There's so many. SNL has done so many.. that Good Neighbour sketch group went on and has now been on SNL for a long time. And there's so many that came from within that. I mean, obviously, like I loved all the Lonely Island stuff.
Mickey Meyer 35:36
There's maybe a crass one, but like "Jizz in my pants", cracks me up every single time.
Mickey Meyer 35:42
I love, we did a short that is, I don't know if you'd qualify it as a sketch. That was based on an article written by Aaron Blair, called "How to Lose a Guy" or "How To Lose Weight in Four Easy Steps".
Mickey Meyer 35:54
And it's that you don't want to spoil it too much.
Mickey Meyer 35:57
But it's that that one is one of my favourites. I don't know what it's called. There's another one that's done by Good Neighbour?
Mickey Meyer 36:09
Toast
Mickey Meyer 36:09
Toast.
Mickey Meyer 36:10
Toast is a great one. Toast is probably my favourite one. Toast is, you know, three guys, cowl neck and back of Good Neighbour, who are about to go out on a, you know, a night to drink. And they agree that they're going to do a toast before they go out. And the toast just kind of keeps building and building and building throughout the sketch until there's a funny button at the end of it as well. But it just keeps getting to more and more ludicrous machinations of what a toast could be
Risto Kuulasmaa 36:44
Can you describe where we are at this very moment? And what kind of role Little League plays for you?
Mickey Meyer 36:52
Yeah, I think I mean, this is literally is such an interesting thing when it comes to this concept of perfection.
Mickey Meyer 36:59
Yeah, we're in an announcer's booth for Little League is where we're recording this.
Mickey Meyer 37:04
And, you know, Little League, baseball is a beautiful sport, to me. And there's a lot of sports that I've played in my life, baseball has this kind of beautiful aspect to it, where the best baseball players in the world fail at the plate seven out of 10 times, and you know, if you're a pitcher, you're going to, people are going to hit the ball.
Mickey Meyer 37:26
Like, that's it's an impossibility, you know, it's a very rare thing to be able to throw a pitch, we're pitching a game where there's no one hitting it no hitter.
Mickey Meyer 37:33
So, you know, for me, Little League has this special place in that you're teaching kids how to fail.
Mickey Meyer 37:43
And your you know, as a perfectionist, or as someone who's trying to find that, you know, that idea of perfection, it is a reminder that you'll never, like perfect can't exist where there is no failure, there, there has to be a version of perfect for you, where failure is a part of the process in that aspiration.
Mickey Meyer 38:06
And you can have moments where you have a perfect day, you know, quote unquote, where you have like, you hit everything the way that you wanted to hit it, and you you know, pitch a perfect game. And like there's there's the there are these things to baseball that you can aspire to.
Mickey Meyer 38:20
But by and large, and especially at the youth level, you're teaching a kid how to how to process a moment where they didn't accomplish the thing that they set out to accomplish, and like their reaction to it.
Mickey Meyer 38:33
And I used to say this into my, my older son's what was called like double a team, so like seven and eight year olds. Whereas like, if you if you don't believe you're going to hit a ball, you're probably not going to hit. Like if you go up there and you don't think you can do this, like it's all but impossible to like, convince the bat somehow that you hit it or it's going to be blind luck, because you're gonna swing and like the ball may may hit your bat, but like probably not.
Mickey Meyer 38:58
If you believe you can, you've given yourself a shot, right?
Mickey Meyer 39:01
If you believe that you can do this, you do.
Mickey Meyer 39:03
And so if you just struck out, and you now are thinking, Oh man, this is I'm gonna strike out again, because I just struck out and like this is how I've defined my life is based on this last failure.
Mickey Meyer 39:12
Again, you're going to perform worse than if you go into this completely forget what just happened and say, I've got this next pitch. I've got this, like, I believe in this like that's my other favourite saying and think within baseball is like next pitch like immediately forget the thing that you just did. If you just hit a homerun, that's amazing.
Mickey Meyer 39:28
Doesn't matter anymore.
Mickey Meyer 39:29
What's the next pitch like you've got to move on always to the next thing. It doesn't mean that you can't celebrate your moments and celebrate your wins. But you know, you have to have that mentality that you're only defined by the thing that you are going to do next because it just gives you that that freedom
Risto Kuulasmaa 39:48
And how you balance with your perfection driven mindset as a coach and then you know you have this little guys who obviously try their best, but, you know, you push them to perfection or how you balance your own. Winner mindset with them?
Mickey Meyer 40:10
It's hard.
Mickey Meyer 40:10
I mean, I it's harder that people let on and harder than I think I lead on is like, I've watched, I get to watch this several listings on the president of our league. Now I get to watch his evolution across all these different divisions.
Mickey Meyer 40:21
And now I'm in the second highest division, but I oversaw the highest division last year.
Mickey Meyer 40:25
And it's interesting to see like the highest division is probably the least, like competitive at the coaching level, which you would think it'd be the opposite, right?
Mickey Meyer 40:36
Like, that's where you'd be the most competitive and people are the most on edge and like, the kids can handle it maybe a little bit better than but no, like this is it think back on the things that you've kept doing in your life?
Mickey Meyer 40:48
Did you ever keep doing one because someone yelled at you, you know, like, you keep doing it, because someone encouraged you. And because you found joy in it, and you keep kind of pulling that string. It's the same thing for kids, right?
Mickey Meyer 41:01
Like, our rookie team, you'd be amazed at how many pins for T ball like the youngest division, people are like, trying to keep track of score, and, you know, nobody gets out, doesn't matter. But people start to get like a little like, the fangs start to come out a little bit. Like, why can't you do this? Why can't you do that?
Mickey Meyer 41:17
And none of those kids come back that have that interaction with their parents that are like, you didn't do this, or you're not good enough or whatever, like they don't want they have a million choices in life at that age, like you can do a million other things. Why go back to this thing that does not bring them happiness.
Mickey Meyer 41:32
And so you know, I think you have to be competitive, you can't be completely, you know, apathetic because it is a game, you're trying to win a game and you're trying to beat the other team, but focusing on team and focusing on what you can teach the kids and that like, where you have to find your own reward as a coach, not in your wins and losses. And it's easy, like you find yourself like, oh, man like that other coaches a dick, and I just want to beat him so badly. And like when it doesn't happen, you're like, shit, his kids, let me down.
Mickey Meyer 42:08
It's hard not to find those, you know, subconscious thoughts of like, what you want to do and why you know what you're analysing as a coach as to like how you could have won and should have won. But you have to find the ability to remind yourself that that's not, you know, one what it's all about, but then to the that's not the success metric, the success metric comes from like, did this good, have a good time? Are they coming back next season? Did they get better?
Risto Kuulasmaa 42:32
And what's your... how have you comfort when, the game is lost, like how you address the team?
Mickey Meyer 42:39
You know, I think it's very important to talk through things I like to I like to hear from the kids kind of first, and, you know, talk about the next pitch mentality.
Mickey Meyer 42:54
But there is also there is value in reflection, you know, at that level, in my opinion, too.
Mickey Meyer 43:00
Like, I like to sit with the kids like, what did you see what worked? What didn't work? Like you tried a bunch of stuff out there? And what did you learn? Because especially like they're learning about thinking of baseball, baseball is like a very intellectual sport, it requires an education when a ball is hit. There's a million different machinations of what could happen.
Mickey Meyer 43:17
If there's a runner on second, do you throw the ball to third?
Mickey Meyer 43:19
Do you try and throw the ball to first do you tag him?
Mickey Meyer 43:22
What do you like, there's all these different rules and nuances to the sport that they're learning about.
Mickey Meyer 43:28
And so that's kind of like the first layer for me is like, Okay, what happened in that game that we can learn from that we can apply to the next game, or we can play that next pitch. So, you know, when that ball got hit to centerfield, I threw it to first base, I should have thrown it to second base, or, you know, when I was up on three, and oh count, I swung and I popped the ball up, and maybe I should have given the pitcher a pitch and then had more time to get the pitch that I wanted to hit or whatever, whatever those things are, like I like to go through that uses learning experience.
Mickey Meyer 44:04
And then more often than not, it just becomes like let me get your head right now. Okay, that's that happened. That's in the past. Are we going to work to get better? Yes, we are.
Mickey Meyer 44:12
Okay, what are we going to work out to get better now?
Mickey Meyer 44:14
Okay, we should work at gets to the outfield, or we should work at you know, we should get more plate appearances. Okay, I'll see you guys in the next practice. We got it. You're going to be okay, move on to the next one. You know, it's kind of a motivational more than anything.
Risto Kuulasmaa 44:27
What has been the most significant trauma in your professional life and what what did you learn out of it?
Mickey Meyer 44:33
I think a lot of it came within Jash, there's someon back and up right now. We are at a little league field.
Mickey Meyer 44:45
Jash was was a moment for me of shifting from being a producer to being an executive and being a founder for that matter.
Mickey Meyer 44:57
And I remember there's a moment where.. you know because the three founders were producers, by all means, like Doug DeLuca, producer on Jimmy Kimmel Live, Daniel Collison had been a producer of so many different shows. Crank Yankers, The Man Show, Jimmy Kimmel Live. Well, you know, David Letterman and all these great shows.
Mickey Meyer 45:11
And then myself...
Mickey Meyer 45:12
And I've been executive and I've been within Maker Studios, but largely, my focus was still production. I understood the business side of it, because I was learning it. But it was not like I had never raised money before or anything like that, or manage cash flow.
Mickey Meyer 45:23
And when I came in, we had this we had, I think, was like $4 million that we gotten from YouTube to start Jash.
Mickey Meyer 45:31
And we had, that was all out of caterers and production contractors, like we had to go produce a bunch of stuff. And so we produced those things, but in the background, had formed a company and like, we're doing all this stuff.
Mickey Meyer 45:40
And that programme was ending, it became clear that they weren't going to re-up, you know, the the initiative. And so the question became like, are we going to keep going as a company? Are we done? Like, do we execute the production company, we're done.
Mickey Meyer 45:53
And it was kind of obvious to me that like, No, we got to keep going like this thing. There's a lot of possibilities to this. And maybe we can do so much more like I believe in the mission of this.
Mickey Meyer 46:00
And so there was a moment where our controller, Natalie, who oversaw all of our, you know, finances, de facto, like CFO, was like, "Hey, I can't get anyone else's attention on this, like, we're running out of money". "Do you? "Can you help me, like, get people to understand this and create action around this".
Mickey Meyer 46:21
And it was terrifying, because I had left Maker Studios, which was a great, you know, paying job and had was on its own rocket ship, and was about to get acquired for a billion dollars from Disney. And it was now on this thing that like, had no money.
Mickey Meyer 46:38
And this was like my livelihood. I'm like, I need to have a paycheck to pay for my mortgage. And I had a kid, you know, who was I think, two or three years old at the time. And about to have my second, and it was a real moment of like, Oh s***, what have I done here?
Mickey Meyer 46:55
And very, like, you know, stressful in the moment, and at the same time, like, rose a little bit from the ashes of that, like, fight or flight moment to fight and "Alright, well, how much money do we have left?" And like, how much money can we make? And what's the easiest ways for us to make money right now?
Mickey Meyer 47:15
And what are what are the things that are going to tip us in that direction and just you know, create an action items around that with the people that were involved in huddled the people that needed to be in these different conversations and, you know, had to let people go and, you know, go through was a very tough process for it being my first time to really like have a round of layoffs was not a thing that I had gotten accustomed to.
Mickey Meyer 47:39
And what what does that mean? And like, how much time do we have to pay people? And like, what are the things we have to do legally that are right here? What are the things we have to do morally that are right for these people?
Mickey Meyer 47:47
And yeah, it's incredibly like traumatic, but also, I think, in a good way, like pushed me into amount of like, I don't know, I'm, I understand this now. I understand what this game of business is. And I want to avoid this moment is all costs. And so what do we have to do?
Mickey Meyer 48:03
And I definitely had other moments where we had to let people go and early have like, had other moments where there was not money in the bank that we thought was going to be there and had to take on bridge loans and like, go down the the entrepreneurs journey, but it's, you know, continues that moment continues to shape. What I, how I envisioned a company like is, there was there was also a moment within that, you know, we're looking at our office space, and looking at all the different things that we can afford, and that the biggest question that started to come back to my mind was like, Well, what is it the time Jash is like, what is Jash?
Mickey Meyer 48:42
Is it this office?
Mickey Meyer 48:44
Is is Jash, all these people here is, is Jash, like, you know, my salary is, is Jash... like, what is what makes Jash and like Jash can exist, whether any of us work in the same place, Jash can exist, whether you know, I'm a part of it, or whether these other people are part of it. Jash, Jash, in theory is a mission. It's a concept.
Mickey Meyer 49:07
And that was also a very liberating moment.
Mickey Meyer 49:09
And even now, I'm starting to build on to kind of my next things. That was, I think it's a very, it's a very comforting thing. Like, I've been working at things in the background for two years, not needing to have an office not needing to have it be a funded exercise as much as like, let me find people that identify with this mission that I care about and can keep moving this thing forward.
Risto Kuulasmaa 49:30
And what were the most perfect moments at Group Nine, outside than winning an Oscar?
Mickey Meyer 49:38
Yeah, I think, you know, we, Group Nine.
Mickey Meyer 49:41
Group Nine was formed on this notion that, you know, it's a it's better to do this together than apart. And so there's all these different brands that came together and said, like, hey, let's let's pool our resources here and build something that can you know, support brands and can help us to grow brands and, you know, deal with the capital raises and things like that in a in a more thoughtful manner.
Mickey Meyer 50:08
And discovery was the largest minority investor intergroup. And it really seeded the company's existence, and they donated their digital assets as well.
Mickey Meyer 50:18
And when I first started, I was I didn't, I wasn't the President of Group Nine Studios, and I was overseeing, you know, intellectual property in all these other things. But on the original programming side, that was kind of separate.
Mickey Meyer 50:35
And yet, we had this great relationship with Discovery, and it was very piecemeal. And it was, if anything to like, when we would do these deals with Discovery, it was like, "Hey, we're gonna help you out and produce a thing", less than it was like, Oh, this is what is good for us. And what we want to do was more about money less than about growth.
Mickey Meyer 50:51
And we went through an exercise as I took over Group Nine Studios, that was really like, Okay, well, what do we want to do? Like, let's start there? Let's start with like, what is the thing that's right for the company to do? And like, what is our long term goal and started to really set that in motion around intellectual property, and we want to, you know, sell shows, but we only want to do it, like when the money feels like it's right, or a little caterpillar just fell off, or they're literally, baby, literally.
Mickey Meyer 51:21
So, you know, there was that that moment happened. And with discovery, I had a real like, roll up sleeves moment, right, as they were launching Discovery+ that said, like, Hey, here's what we do, here's where our skill sets are. And here's what we're trying to build. Let me understand more about what it is that you're trying to build.
Mickey Meyer 51:40
And we structured the largest commercial deal between the two companies to go and develop shows.
Mickey Meyer 51:46
And, you know, us it also helped us to identify like, what is our place in the market? And what is the thing that we bring when we're selling a show? And why would people buy shows from us versus buy shows from, you know, this company that's been doing it for 40 years.
Mickey Meyer 52:02
And I'm, I'm very proud of that moment, it took a lot of people to get there, you know, obviously, on the Discovery side, and the Group Nine side, on the brand side for us, you know, creative side.
Mickey Meyer 52:15
And I truly believe that it's the first step towards unlocking a much bigger version of Group Nine studios and digital production, because, you know, so many people, again, it's still based off of like, Hey, what's this great concept, and, you know, let's go make this thing and who's the best maker of this thing? And they bring in a production company, they shoot it, and then it's done.
Mickey Meyer 52:38
And nothing, nothing, you know, nothing you can fully automate in this world, you know, and entertainments always kind of buffed against this is like, how do I how do I make, you know, the perfect show, and it's like, a computer could like, tell me all the ways that the data lines up to make this thing perfectly, not, that doesn't, that doesn't exist, there's got to be creativity still at the heart of it.
Mickey Meyer 53:01
But when it comes to the making of a show, and when it comes to the optimising of a show, that's a rhythm that no major, like, you know, publisher or platform really has figured out yet.
Mickey Meyer 53:17
And that is the key to freedom in my opinion is like, if you can figure out, Okay, here's a concept that you that you, you know, have some conviction over based on the data that you see, like people will be interested in a community will be interested in this thing. And you can, you know, add intelligence along the production path to say, like, hey, we, you know, we know that people like..
Mickey Meyer 53:41
I'm giving the example because it'd be easier.
Mickey Meyer 53:43
The Dodo, one of our brands, produces, you know, animal centric content and identified a strand of data that said, animal people really like to watch animals overcoming adversity.
Mickey Meyer 53:56
And so the creative team got together and developed a show about animals overcoming adversity called "Combat Kids".
Mickey Meyer 54:02
That show went up and averaged 40 million views an episode on Facebook and they were like, Yeah, people love watching this thing. Let's keep doing more of that thing brought that to Animal Planet said like, Hey, we've got this thing. We want to develop something out longer form and Oh, Planet says, you know, hey, our audience, we know them likes to watch humans more, but like we understand your perspective on the animals piece of it. Let's make a show about the humans that are helping animals overcome adversity.
Mickey Meyer 54:27
And so that show goes up and it's the largest, you know, Global Freshman premiere, and we'll plant a history or some you know, crazy gaudy stats. Where every five you know, five viewers of the show, we're new to Animal Planet coming from Dodo and this audience that already existed from that show, which ran multiple seasons.
Mickey Meyer 54:47
We've sold now a show that we went straight to series for things like 18 episodes to Disney in "Roman to the Rescue", about a kid who helps dogs get adopted and faith based their adversity and a show about Skyterra component called "Wizard of Paws" is now in its fifth season, about a guy who helps dashing prosthetics for animals.
Mickey Meyer 55:10
And another show about this, this girl Izzy, who lives in Australia on a Koala Sanctuary and helps these koalas rehab and overcome their adversity. It's like, that small strand of data allows so much creativity to happen, but it was also de-risked, right. And now once we because we also knew that we felt competent in that data, it makes all of your targeting efforts easier.
Mickey Meyer 55:32
So I know I can maybe buy a viewer for this show. If I needed to, I can advertise to them. In May, hopefully, you know, $10 off of the advertising we're gonna make to them for the $9 I need to spend to get them right like that's that game of arbitrage is very real.
Mickey Meyer 55:47
And so that moment for me of signing that deal with Discovery to say, hey, you have financing and you have a large platform and you're like, you know, merging with Warner now.
Mickey Meyer 55:56
It's like that, that being married with what we understand about data, data science, and optimising and that feedback process, unlocks something massive, to say, hey, we're gonna go make this movie because we have this conviction. And now we're going to market it smarter along the way and be able to optimise for other TV shows or other extensions of the IP like that, that's pretty big.
Risto Kuulasmaa 56:18
Can you share our show from the other end of the spectrum, which was more risky or intuitive? Like didn't have the data to back it up?
Mickey Meyer 56:28
Yeah, I mean, not one that we've produced, everything that we've produced really has come pretty solidly out of data in some direction, I think that we had, we had one show that was kind of brought to us from a network that was kind of a reimagining of real sex, that show that used to live on HBO.
Mickey Meyer 56:54
And it was like, alright, well, here's like our version of it. And here's what we think people would respond to.
Mickey Meyer 56:59
And it ultimately just got caught in the crosshairs of a bunch of shows getting the rug pulled out from underneath. And like we were supposed to start production on a Monday, I got a call on a Friday, that was like, hey, this, we're going to pull the plug on the show.
Mickey Meyer 57:11
And that, you know, I right, I chalked up a little bit to the like, alright, well, this wasn't our show. And like, we didn't have a crazy amount of conviction over but we did think it lined up with the brand, and it helped for all these other, you know, other things. But yeah, that one, that one failed.
Risto Kuulasmaa 57:30
How you see where Hollywood is setting, where we are at the moment, and what trends, and quiet signals you're you're catching?
Mickey Meyer 57:41
I think I mean, what's what's amazing is it's never, you know, it's never been a better time to be a creator.
Mickey Meyer 57:46
Like there's so many tools out there for you to help you to get to the place that you wanted to get to, you know, when we started maker, like, none of these tools existed, the idea existed and seeing that come to fruition, where you have people that are making, you know, millions and millions of dollars a month, you know, creating stuff from their house in North Carolina or wherever, and they're making the exact things that they want to make.
Mickey Meyer 58:11
And like, that's, that's so cool to see.
Mickey Meyer 58:15
I think that there's still a finance gap between that autonomy and the more ambitious projects that you see on an HBO or you see at the box office that hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, in that way, and I don't know that social platforms is what's going to get us there.
Mickey Meyer 58:35
And for advertisers, you know, backing a project, like that's just not the the equation doesn't fully check out. And so you still need a financier to get there. And is that financier your studio? Or is that financier a platform?
Mickey Meyer 58:50
Like that's yeah, for right now. That's how it kind of currently exists.
Mickey Meyer 58:54
My hope and my you know, my vision for it is like if, if I could write the future, and if I could have all the resources in the world to go crack the code of it, like the most interesting machination for how something gets financed, if it can ultimately retain ownership in that creator economy and be community based. That's where I think we'll see the most innovative content coming from so like Web3 is very, very interesting.
Mickey Meyer 59:28
And I think that that world of Dows and NFT's. NFT's is like, you know, think is a word that probably won't even be used in a couple of years. It's just it's an easy way to describe technology right now. But that tokenization within a community to help support that community's efforts, I think will stands the ability to challenge traditional finance mechanisms for how content is made.
Mickey Meyer 59:53
And, you know, I'm hard pressed to think that they'll ever be a version where there's not like a billioner somewhere that just like spends money gets behind a movie that wants, they just want to make something, you know, like that that will always exist.
Mickey Meyer 1:00:06
But I think that there'll be a newer, you know, I think there'll be a newer evolution that will unlock and get rid of this finance gap to say, hey, if you're a creator in, you know, Finland, or wherever, and this is the thing that you want to see, you can tap into a community that can help fund that which is already kind of there. But these tools that are evolving now make it so much more scalable than like, Hey, man, ask my friends and family to like, donate through GoFundMe page.
Mickey Meyer 1:00:34
This is now Hey, you can invest in this thing, see real upside in this thing. And be you know, participating and supporting things that you believe in along the way, as opposed to the power only lying with a bank or with a studio.
Risto Kuulasmaa 1:00:52
What's your advice to young creators who strive for perfection?
Mickey Meyer 1:00:58
There's, there's this Ira Glass quote that I'm going to absolutely butcher.
Mickey Meyer 1:01:03
But, this is a very long quote, I always like Google and like read it to people, but it's the general sentiment of it is,
Mickey Meyer 1:01:13
"When you first start out creating, you have unbelievable taste, and you have not honed your craft. And so everything you create you think sucks. And so the key is basically to just keep creating, and as long as you keep going and you get past those humps, eventually you'll find a moment where your taste aligns with your efforts and your creativity. And if you can get to that point, like the future's kind of yours", right.
Mickey Meyer 1:01:40
So that's always my advice is like, if you're creative, just create like, don't, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be perfect, it will never be perfect. I've watched enough filmmakers, you know, get to this point where they are releasing something or something has to be uploaded, and they're making changes up until someone basically yells at them.
Mickey Meyer 1:01:59
And those are tend to be the best creators, right? Like they're trying to find their own version of perfection for the project that they care about. And it will never be done.
Mickey Meyer 1:02:08
And like, most creatives get to that point where they start to learn that and it's very liberating. But it's also like, where some of the best stuff I've ever seen comes from is that like frustration of chasing perfection and never being able to find it.
Mickey Meyer 1:02:21
But that's what makes you great.
Mickey Meyer 1:02:23
Like, that's your taste is what makes you great. It's like you keep chipping away at it, you keep trying to make it better, you keep you know, iterating and iterating. And thinking through things and your gut is what makes you great. So if you're a creator, keep creating and, you know, go easy on the people that are trying to help you to create because they're, they understand other parts of the process that are gonna allow you to keep doing it.
Risto Kuulasmaa 1:02:47
if we would create a perfect world, what are the areas that you are kind of on a mission to fix?
Mickey Meyer 1:02:56
That representation piece is probably the biggest is just I want, especially, you know, the larger, larger pieces of content that break through community and algorithms.
Mickey Meyer 1:03:10
I want a better representation of the world in which we live.
Mickey Meyer 1:03:14
And it's much easier said than done, because especially like just, you know, the nature of technologies, everything has gotten so customised to who you are and then what communities you involve yourself in and you know, what people you follow and all that kind of stuff.
Mickey Meyer 1:03:30
And so it's very hard to have something that breaks through. It's very hard to have, you know, these massive movies and TV shows that everyone turns their head and watches it's much easier to have something that like a specific community watches and that idea that we kind of departed from have these like grandiose things right, like a talk show used to reach 80 million people a night now it reaches two million and at best, like having something that crosses demographics and crosses communities but is still representative of a world that is not straight white male, has a heroic journey like that. That's the thing that I'm probably the most passionate about.
Mickey Meyer 1:04:10
And then if I could like mould my perfect society is like having that work very fluidly with the way these communities interact and can support each other like that. That's the dream, right? Like, Little League baseball is fully driven by a community. If you have you know, your coaches or volunteers you have, you know, the people who are watching the games and the parents are putting money into not only registration, but then also into the snack bar, where they're going to buy food that money from the snack bar goes into the league who then spends it on jerseys, you know, it's like it works completely with some layer of autonomy.
Mickey Meyer 1:04:45
And if we can do that within Media, that is when things will feel like the closest to perfection.
Risto Kuulasmaa 1:04:55
Thank you for listening the Talks of Imperfection.
Risto Kuulasmaa 1:04:59
The podcast is enabled by Edita Prima. Edita Orima orchestrates automated customer journeys to perfection by making Karis ideas of imperfection data frames.
Risto Kuulasmaa 1:05:12
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